enough with the office de francaise

[EagerBeaver]

Tu sais, EagerBeaver, le poste de président de Fidel Castro au Cuba est rendu vacant. Tu devrais postuler pour car tu conviendrais parfaitement à ce rôle. Tu as toutes les qualités recquises pour à voir à quel point tu veux m'imposer TA vision des choses et TA langue. Surtout que les Américains aiment tellement Cuba, n'est-ce pas?

mazingerz,

I don't have affiliation with any political party so I have no intention of seeking any position with the new Cuban government. However, should you choose to run, I can tell you that the Cubans are used to having the government tell them how to speak, so perhaps your ideologies would fit in well there.

 

[anon_vlad]

Eager Beaver,

I would guess that at a meeting of ten business people in the States if one didn't speak Spanish, all would immediately switch to English without anyone being annoyed as the latter language is unquestionably the official language of the your country.

In this province, most of those of French origin think of themselves as Quebecois first and Canadians second. Most of the English speaking minority see themselves as Canadians who happen to live in Quebec. Both groups therefore regard their language as that of the majority. Even those who are effortlessly bilingual take offence at demands to express themselves in the "other" language.

Not all interactions between the groups are acrimonious. Some are even comical. Strangers more comfortable in English often start conversations with each other in French and only switch when both notice the other has an English accent. I often compete with French sales clerks to converse in French when they answer in English when I imagine that I speak my second language better than they do theirs. I know of someone who can speak both without an accent who always responds in the opposite language of each sales clerk she encounters out of sheer perversity.

I rarely make the effort to write in French here and yet have never been chided for it. Mazingerz is probably not an employee of Merb either and is not obliged to make an effort for you.

There are centuries of history, hurt feelings and misunderstandings here. If you don't want to understand the cultural context and insist on simply regarding him as rude, ignore him rather than berating him. I recall as a child being told that pointing out someone else's faux pas is in itself rude. Incidentally, he is not an idiot, but his posts have not been particularly insightful, amusing or informative either. You will not be missing much.

 

[Lion Heart]

Always a bit tough to accept "I've received PMs from the most intelligent people and they agree with me".... wish they would post... It's amazing how many times I can be convinced to change my mind....

But the most obviously BS part is the "terrorized into silence" comment... ya gotta be kidding... EB reread your posts, think about the vitriol you used right form the beginning and then examine how many gentle posts were made in response ...

I don't care for the vehemence of many of your posts, but for the most part they display some intellectual honesty; this one doesn't.

Dee: I fully agree with you.

EB: I saw your post in Karma's blog thread and had the very same reaction than Roland. It's clearly a reference to this debate. You said yourself you're going to take this issue to other threads. Because many don't adhere to your arguments, you call them Nazis. This IS insulting. You're dealing here not only with language, but with a very strong historical and cultural issue in Quebec.

I perfectly understand your point. Techman and may be a few other terrorized senior posters agree with you? That's fine with me. Many don't and that's make them dumbs, or worse, Nazis? That's not what I call an intelligent debate.

Techman has put his arguments in a clear and respectful fashing, with no name calling or insults. He did said that:

I have no problem with anyone using or speaking any language they want, anywhere they want. I have a problem with those that pass laws against just that to help them survive because they can't survive on their own merits or have enough children to ensure their culture's survival.

I agree with the first part of Techman's statement...that's in essence the position of many who don't agree with you, including myself. But you're so biased in your mind that you can't even consider a position as simple as this one. I don't agree with the second part of Techman's statement, but I don't want to debate this here as this would go much further into the historical, political and cultural arena than the simple choice of language issue on this internet forum. This has also been discussed in other threads before anyway.

Lion Heart

 

[EagerBeaver]

No Seinfeld Fans Here?

Lion Heart,

Did you ever see the episode of Seinfeld featuring the "Soup Nazi"? That's exactly what mazingerz is. That's why I referred to him as a "Language Nazi." The "Soup Nazi" had a famous line in Seinfeld: "No soup for you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" And every time I see mazingerz respond to an English post in French, I think of the same thing: "no English for you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" It's an analogy that is so perfect that if they decide to do a French language version of Seinfeld cast in Montreal, I suspect that there would be such a character as the "Language Nazi." Perhaps mazingerz would even be cast in the role.

But again, we are not in Montreal. This is an Internet Board in cyberspace being brought to you from Toronto. We should behave according to the generally accepted rules of Internet posting and I believe Techman has already thoroughly elucidated what those are. It's only on MERB that those rules get suspended for a few who perceive a special interest. On other Boards in other places in Cyberspace, mazingerz would have been suspended for violating the very simple rule prohibiting discourtesy to other posters.

 

[Kepler]

I found this thread pretty interesting when we were at least talking about language issues and politics.

But now it's just degenerated into insults and personal attacks.

 

[Regular Guy]

The Great Debate

Well EB I guess you were bound to go at this eventually. I would suppose by now you understand how deeply woven into the Canadian political fabric this issue is. It is at times at the very core of our survival as a nation undivided. To that end I can promise you that you will never resolve this issue here. You can take that as a fact as sure as there is a Law of Gravity. Sadly the only truth here is that the more you go at it the more it will begin to eat at you. As I suggested in another thread, might be wiser to work around it.

We have other mazingerz's in Canada. He is not unique. Nor is he the most extreme of the bunch. There is one in Ottawa right now stirring up a political storm over his demand for a comprehensive and complete overhaul of all public institutions (especially the police) to include only fully bilingual people. Great way to get out of a speeding ticket eh? He has even some francophones a bit upset (if you listen to the radio talk shows). Point is, that you won't solve this issue here. Trust me on this one. You will only succeed in getting many heels dug in. The day this issue is resolved will see the dissolution of Canada as we know it. You can take that one to the bank.

But hey, maybe this is a good learning experience for you. Like many of your fellow countrymen who still believe that polar bears freely roam our streets, this may turn out to be an excellent educational opportunity. Best of luck with it.

 

[Techman]

I agree with the first part of Techman's statement...that's in essence the position of many who don't agree with you, including myself. But you're so biased in your mind that you can't even consider a position as simple as this one. I don't agree with the second part of Techman's statement, but I don't want to debate this here as this would go much further into the historical, political and cultural arena than the simple choice of language issue on this internet forum. This has also been discussed in other threads before anyway.

Lion Heart

Fine...let's remove all the xenophobia and political points of view and let's just deal with common sense and common courtesy.

Does it make any sense at all to reply in French to a person who starts a thread looking for information in English because he does not comprehend French? Is it polite in any way to do so? Does it serve the greater good of the board to do so? Why bother responding at all if the information you are providing cannot be understood by the person looking for it? At the very least, doing such a thing is stupid and pointless.

How about we just use a bit of common courtesy and when a poster starts a thread looking for info, we respond in a language he can understand. Or don't reply at all. Is that too much to ask or is it just too hard for some people to resist being a smartass?


Techman

 

[Lion Heart]

We should behave according to the generally accepted rules of Internet posting and I believe Techman has already thoroughly elucidated what those are.

For the sake of intellectual honesty, Techman also said as I already quoted him in one of his last post:

I have no problem with anyone using or speaking any language they want, anywhere they want.

It's so clear and simple, it's hard to think you can't understand this - I guess it's because you don't want to understand. I don't necessarily agree with Mazingerz's decision and motivation to post only in French, specially in response to an English poster - do you see me doing this and responding to you in French? - but it's not the point. There are principles in communication and marketing that can't be ignored: if you want to get your message across, better use the language, AND the level of language, that your auditoire will readily comprehend or you're loose them. But this IS Mazingerz's problem, HIS decision and HIS freedom of choice, at the risk of being ignored by many as I pointed out before.

There's no "generally accepted rules" anywere and no leniant attitude about this on MERB about the choice of language. There is obviously some in your mind and probably in others. Continue your futile crusade if you want, but please skip name calling, insult and specially things like Nazi references out of the equation to justify your positions. This cross-over local sensitivies you can't even grasp considering your American culture. This board may be in the Cyberspace, but you're exchanging with many Quebecers here, myself to begin with. Please put that into your perspective.

But as this has obviously become a deaf dialogue, count me out from now on. Continue to preach in the desert if you want, but please keep it civilized and in one thread, not all over the board.

Lion Heart

PS - To answer your question, Seinfeld's cultural universe is definitely not mine. There are many distinctive differences between the French culture I'm part of and your's. You may appreciate his sense of humor with respect to Nazis, I don't. Trying to justify an insulting statement with such reference doesn't go very far in the way of an apology.

 

[leneo]

Encore !!!!

Ce thread n'as plus de bon sens est ce que les gens peuvent bien s'entendre sur la langue .. français ou l'anglais wow !!! j ai l'impression d'être dans le sud de la Floride avec des red neck ... ils y a des choses ben plus importantes que se chicaner pour nos différence ! !!

 

[EagerBeaver]

johnhenrygalt,

I have previously posted that I understand a little bit of written French. But I am not posting for myself in this debate, necessarily. I am posting for the unilingual posters who don't understand any French, and to whom mazingerz has been rude and discourteous with his replies. At least one of them complained.

Also, what mazingerz wrote in the post to which you quoted my response was pretty easy to understand. His last French post directed at me (#141), which is longer, I could not tell you what he wrote at all.

 

[Lion Heart]

Fine...let's remove all the xenophobia and political points of view and let's just deal with common sense and common courtesy.

Does it make any sense at all to reply in French to a person who starts a thread looking for information in English because he does not comprehend French? Is it polite in any way to do so? Does it serve the greater good of the board to do so? Why bother responding at all if the information you are providing cannot be understood by the person looking for it? At the very least, doing such a thing is stupid and pointless.

How about we just use a bit of common courtesy and when a poster starts a thread looking for info, we respond in a language he can understand. Or don't reply at all. Is that too much to ask or is it just too hard for some people to resist being a smartass?


Techman

I believe my responses to Castor Anxieux also answer much of you last post. But will all due respect, there's no need to follow EB's path and call anybody who wants to express himself in the language of his choice a smartass.

I agree that it's not necessarily polite or wise for communication purposes to answer someone in a language he will likely not understand. You don't need a Ph.D. to understand that. I also don't agree with Mazingerz underlying motivations for doing this. But I'll repeat myself: it's is rightful decision to do so and there's no justification to make a hateful crusade against him, trowing names and insults along the way to everybody who happens to be of this opinion. That's all and enough waste of internet brandwith as far as I'm concerned.

Lion Heart

 

[metoo4]

Always the same, over and over...
Facts:
1- Québec (notice the "é") is a french-speaking province.

2- When in Québec, it's in french that things should happen. Those who don't like it don't have to stay here. Lots of peoples in Québec speak english as a second language and are happy to help when the other peoples do an effort. But if somebody comes to us with an attitude like "I demand you speak english to me!" then, even myself who's perfectly bilingual tend to "loose" my english...

3- The argument about those who need laws to survive is irrelevant, if not simplistic and childish. If it would have any validity, it would imply we should remove all laws about discrimination, sex orientation, gender and such: if you can't survive on your own, just die. This isn't my point-of-view and luckily, this isn't society's either.
4- Even if I don't find it cool that somebody answer in a different language than the one the question was asked, I don't see any reason to be offended by it: if I don't understand the answer, i won't read it, nothing more. At least, the guy tried to help. If I'm about to die, I'd rather have somebody I don't understand who try to help me than be left to die.

...and I could go on and on and on...

EB, The USA are south of the Canada/Québec border. Please leave the arrogant US attitude south of our borders.

 

[EagerBeaver]

Lion Heart,

With all due respect I don't think it is insulting to draw colorful analogies to make one's point. The reference to Rohm, I will admit, probably went too far and I apologize for that. The reference to the "Language Nazi" as analogous to the "Soup Nazi" is, as you Canadians would say, bang on. I find it bizarre that when Seinfeld said these things on his show, 75,000,000 people a night would laugh, but when I say the same thing to describe the same kind of behavior, I am told that I am an insulting boor. That's really not fair. OK so maybe you have a different sense of humor but don't criticize 75,000,000 people a night who disagreed with you.

I could also compare mazingerz's behavior to that of Terrell Owens after he scores a touchdown and rubs it into the face of his opponent. Terrell Owens is a universally recognized smartass and trashtalker. But if I dare to compare mazingerz' behavior it's an insult? I don't think so.

You have argued the other side of this debate more effectively than any other poster in this thread, even acknowledging the weaknesses on your side of the argument. Believe me I have appropriate sensitivity to all the things you say when I am in Montreal and I have never had a problem or have been accused of being insensitive to anyone there. But I feel that on an Internet Board politics and language should not be allowed to interfere with the dissemination of information to the widest possible audience. And I believe that very strongly. I have also privately scolded posters who criticized the English diction of Francophone posters, believing that it will encourage others to behave like mazingerz. Have you ever seen me criticize the English of any poster other than O. Kloseoff who is an anglophone that butchers his own language?

 

[beautydigger]

Please leave the arrogant US attitude south of our borders.

Dear Mr. Facts:
Could you please give the number of times Fred Zed has posted in French.

 

[Techman]

EB...haven't you learned yet? Mazingerz is French and therefore is untouchable. This is Quebec and no one has the right to question or criticize the 'French Fact'. You can't even expect them to follow the basics of politeness or courtesy. We are both wasting our time in this thread as no one will ever have the balls to stand with us. Wouldn't want to cause another 'provocation' or insult to the French majority in this PROVINCE. I'm actually surprised that no one has complained about MERB to the OLF yet. Then again...the week's not over yet.

 

[EagerBeaver]

Roland,

If I said that I never criticized the English of another poster, some wiseass would be sure to say, "yes you did, with O. Kloseoff you did." So I am merely stating the facts. Yes OK does post in his own way and nobody is stopping him from doing that, and in fact I only criticized his diction on a few occasions long ago when he had lapsed into complete incoherence.

The point I was trying to make is that with Francophone posters attempting to post in less than perfect English, I have never criticized anyone doing that. And in addition, those who post on the Eleganza board know there is one poster there whose English is particularly bad, and I have had to defend him because it's not his native language. By the ways, mazingerz' English is much better than that poster's.

 

[Kepler]

Facts:
1- Québec (notice the "é") is a french-speaking province.

And Montreal is (or will soon be) majority English speaking. So what? ( http://lcn.canoe.ca//infos/national/archives/2008/01/20080124-080730.html )

2- When in Québec, it's in french that things should happen. Those who don't like it don't have to stay here.

Excuse me? What about the English who trace their Quebec roots all the back to the 1600's?

Your statement is as offensive as saying "In Canada (or Montreal), it's in English that things should happen and those who don't like it should leave."

Both statements are equally outrageous and racist.

 

[EagerBeaver]

Mangeriz, or however he spells his handle, is an imp. You're feeding the troll.

You are correct of course, and some other posters who are afraid to get involved have said the same thing to me by PM. It's not just about 1 troll, however. It's about that person spawning copycats who will do the same thing, causing a lot of thread clutter and wasting bandwith.

 

[Kepler]

I'm actually surprised that no one has complained about MERB to the OLF yet.

Well MERB is outside their jurisdiction. But the escort agencies ARE in their jurisdiction. I notice that many agency websites are in English only. A clear violation of the law.

I would love to see the newspaper headlines generated by an OLF crackdown on them!

 

[beautydigger]

With Kosovo declaring its’ independence recently, this would be a good time for the Quebec separatists to do the same. I am sure the UN will support it. Please, don’t burn our embassy!