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Herouxville:Them damm bastards do not know what dammage they have done to themselves.

Doc Holliday

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EagerBeaver said:
Well, the only culture that matters to me at this time of year is the culture of college basketball, which definitely does not exist in Canada.:p

Not only NCAA basetball, but NBA basketball in general. It's only popular in southern Ontario, mostly in the Toronto area. Their fault, though. Most of their tv broadcasts are reserved for southern Ontario & some other areas of the province. I was in Mtl recently and i couldn't find the Raptors games anywhere!! Frustrating, to say the least! At least i can watch the Blue Jays on MLB TV on my computer when they're not being shown on TSN.
 

JustBob

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Equanimity said:
I know nothing about basketball( that's an understatement) but every year I cheer for that team that sounds like an Italian cheese.

Same here. I coudn't care less about pro basketball and really, I could never take a sport where you can score 100 points seriously (hang a midget on bungee cords over the rim to act as a goalie and I might reconsider), but I watch March Madness religiously every year. As a sporting event, it just rocks. And I cheer for that Gorgonzola (Gonzaga) team too. :p
 

Cosmo

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Equanimity said:
I'm sorry I must have missed something, before all this started were Muslims trying to change any laws ?



Listen I agree with you about it seeming to be oppressive but I sort of think that it's not my decision to make since it seems to be a religious thing. I thought it was enough to ensure that Shia(sp?) family laws did not apply in Canada which means that no one, regardless of religion, can force someone to cover their face.

I doubt that they are very many Muslim women walking the streets of Hooterville with their faces covered.

My whole point is that by legislating behaviour you are ristricting freedoms. In this case it is racially motivated. Even if it wasn't that shouldn't matter.

Do you really want some tinpot town council legislating how you behave? Or is ok only when you happen to agree with them.

What would you say if they decided that no one was allowed to wear green on St Patrick's day or it was against the law to wear a Pittsburg Penguin hockey sweater? Or banned Nike running shoes bcause they were made with slave labour.

Yes, muslims and other religions extremists are trying to either change or bend the rules and laws to suit their beliefs.Actually some have succeeded in it.Take Blainville's Hassidim community,they have had their town barricaded with a fence wich is illegal in Canada as far as I know.
This is racism and our authorities are doing nothing with it out of fear of beign called racist and intolerant.I belive it's even worse that Herouxville but no one is saying nothing.Try and go there and see what happens.Doing nothing is like legislating their behaviors.

I said that it's not Herouxville decision's to take and that if they did take such decision it's because our authorities are not doing their jobs.But I will not call them Hillbillies and Hooterville like you do.

No one can force anyone to cover thier faces but these people are not fully aware of it and most of them do it because they read it in the koran and had their brains washed.
And most importantly,some do it as a POLITICAL statement.And a lot of those statement are racially motivated.Yet you seem to only see the Herouxville side.
Proof is,some muslims(and others) don't wear nothing on their heads,and do not asks for any accomodations and still they practice their religion quietly at home on their own terms without bothering anyone with silly and unreasonable accomodations that goes against quebcois and canadian values.


I don't think that wearing green on St-Patrick or a hockey sweather has anything to do with either religion or political statement.AND is not a sign of inegality between man and women.

cosmo
 

joelcairo

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As I type these words it's post # 61 but we're really all swinging the bats for nothing - metoo4 hit the ball out of the park on post # 3 when he nailed it perfectly.
 

CaptRenault

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Whatever you think about the actions of the town fathers of Herouxville, it looks like they have helped to spark a very lively debate in Quebec and Canada (and here on MERB) about how immigrants and minorities should be integrated into Quebec and Canadian society.

Quebec strikes commission to resolve minorities debate
globeandmail.com
Feb. 9, 2007

QUEBEC -- The debate over accommodation of religious minorities has become so divisive that Quebec Premier Jean Charest named a non-partisan commission yesterday to settle an issue that has threatened to sideswipe his party on the eve of an election.

He said Quebec's fundamental values cannot be compromised to accommodate religious-minority groups.

"The Quebec nation has values, solid values, among them the equality between men and women, the primacy of French and the separation between religion and state," Mr. Charest said. "These are fundamental values. They are part of Quebec. They cannot be subject to any accommodation. They cannot be subordinated to any other principle."

He insisted that immigrants must adhere to these values, and will have help integrating into Quebec society. But to achieve peaceful co-existence, everyone needs to compromise, he added.

The non-partisan commission headed by two Quebec intellectuals, sociologist Gérard Bouchard and philosopher Charles Taylor, was given a mandate to resolve the debate within the framework of the values Mr. Charest outlined.

Beginning next month, the Bouchard-Taylor commission will hold public hearings across the province. The commission has a year to table recommendations on ways to accommodate religious sensibilities and practices, which will later be debated in the National Assembly.

A number of recent incidents had prompted some predominantly francophone rural communities to demand that Quebec values be respected when accommodations are made for religious minorities.

Many protested when a Montreal YMCA frosted the windows of an exercise room after members of a neighbouring synagogue complained that their teenage boys were being exposed to the flesh of women doing Pilates, aerobics and other exercises. Furor erupted when female police officers in Montreal were asked not to address ultra-orthodox Jewish men, and when a man was asked to get out of a public pool because female Muslims objected to his presence.

The latest incident involved an ambulance driver who was kicked out of the cafeteria of a Jewish hospital for eating a ham sandwich.

"These are not reasonable accommodations. These arrangements are contrary to the values of our nation," Mr. Charest said. "There is a misunderstanding over what is a reasonable accommodation."

The political fallout from the debate jeopardized Liberal support when residents complained that the government was failing to protect the values of Quebec's increasingly secular society.

Striking the proper balance may not be easy. Parti Québécois Leader André Boisclair sparked a backlash in outlying regions when he suggested that the crucifix be taken out of the National Assembly. More than 80 per cent of Quebeckers are Roman Catholics, and the crucifix remains a powerful symbol of Quebec's identity and culture.

The Action démocratique du Québec responded to the growing resentment of both the Liberal and the PQ positions with a campaign to defend Quebec's heritage. Although ADQ Leader Mario Dumont was accused of making comments that bordered on racism, public opinion shows the ADQ leading in predominantly francophone regions of Eastern Quebec.

"Initially, Jean Charest said everything was fine," Mr. Dumont said yesterday. "Then just 48 hours ago, he said we had to put an end to the debate. . . . Now he has taken a 180-degree turn."
 

metoo4

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Mar 27, 2004
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If only I knew...
JHG, that's not the point! They could barricade all windows and paint the inside lime green with pink polka dots if they want! The reason why they did it is the problem. They didn't do it by choice, they did it for somebody else.

If the administration of the Y would decide to redecorate in any weird ways or do wathever they like, without external pressure, on their own, all peoples could do is agree or disagree but, they didn't do it this way. They had extrnal pressure and, thinking they would look good, they reacted positively to the request. Now, with frosted windows, peoples who train can't see outside anymore.

See, if the frosting of windows had been done for, let's say, decoration purposes, nobody could complain. Peoples training would not see outside because of a stupid question of aestetics, that's it. Now, the windows were frosted to comply with a request from a group who felt their beliefs or rights were attacked. Result: peoples who train and are members of the majority have their rights to see outside removed, in order to accomodate the belief of a minority who don't want to adapt to the Canadian majority.

In Canada, training while wearing tight spandex suits is considered acceptable and there's nothing that need to be hidden in this situation. Revert back 40-50 years and the situation would have been different. Put all these peoples training naked and situation would be different This is about what's acceptable in Canada, at this instant, by the majority of Canadians, not what's accepted in other countries or here by some minorities.
 

Cosmo

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Equanimity,

Well for once we agree.:rolleyes:
The YMCA's decision was stupid and all they had to do is say no.(such is the case with most of these accomodations--we need to learn to say NO.)
Nobody could have taken actions in court and win against their refusal to oblige.
Even worse,they(YMCA) lied about the frosting.They first told their members that it was about changing some broken windows,but I'm not sure about this.
The fact remain,they tried to hide the truth to their members who train there.
All, if nor most of those accomodations have been done on an individual one by one basis.
In most cases the peoples(majority) who felt leased by such accomodations could have used the charter and won their cases.
In most cases the parties who granted those accomodations refused to take their responsabilities,out of fear of beign accused of intolerance and racism.
They(ymca,schools,hôspitals,clsc,saaq ect...) could and should have said no.
Plain and simple.

cosmo
 

Cosmo

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johnhenrygalt said:
It may well have been a stupid decision; but it was their decision to make, not "society's". If their membership and revenues drop, well tough shit. Private businesses make stupid decisions every day.

johnenrygalt,

All your accomodations towards your neighbors are very noble and makes me wish I was one of your neighbors.:cool:
But one small detail:none of them are religious related.None of them puts equality between sexes in jeopardy.
None of them goes against the equality between men and women as well as between races and religions.

I do believe that it's every body's business when some one from any race or religious groups enfringe on the equality between men and women.

cosmo
 

metoo4

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Mar 27, 2004
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If only I knew...
JHG, again, you proove you don't understand the idea of a concept and you try to insulate the situation to specific facts that suit your agenda. Would you be part of a minority group by any chance? Try to see the "big picture", not only what you see when looking tru a cardboard tube.

What you do at home is entirely your business. You accomodate your neighbour and that's your decision and it's totally ok! But these decision impact ONLY YOU, nobody else beside you and whoever you live with.

If you feel like frosting your windows or having your wife/gf/daughter to cover their face to accomodate your neighbour, as long as the wife/gf/daughter agree, I don't give a damn and nobody will. Again THAT is a private matter.

Comparing decision made by the YMCA with decision you'd make at home is apples and oranges.

The Y is a public facility, designed to be accessible to anybody who cares to obey by the rules set by the Y and society. This is not a private home or a private matter, it's public. It only private in the sense of fundings but public in any other ways, same as a restaurant. For example, at home, you could refuse Black peoples access but, the Y and restaurants can't. That's only 1 difference between private and public, there's many others and, the "frosting" decision is one of these differences.

Don't forget the YMCA is not a Montréal concept: it exist all over North America. This only add to the "public" dimension of the YMCA.
 

Mike Mercury

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player_82 said:
Oui, me rapelle d'une dame qui mentioner quand elle était petite dans un parc public a Montréal qui disait pas de chien et pas de juif!

Continuer le Québec va de bon train!


Écoutes moi bien, le petit.
Enlèves la cire qui te bouche les oreilles. Fermes-la et écoutes.

Si elle avait été à Toronto ou aux États elle aurait vu 100 parcs comme ça.
Et encore pire comme:
The Riot at Christie Pits


La fais-toi plaisir, fermes-la où effaces toi. Tu n'es pas dans ma ligue mon petit.

De plus Lionel Groulx était financé par le Premier Ministre du Canada. Pourquoi? Des hommes comme King, Meighen et Borden étaient des profonds racistes et antisémites qui préféraient cacher leurs petits secrets côchons et le mettre sur le dos des autres. Quand tu comprendras ça, tu comprendras la petite face sale de l impérialisme et colonialisme anglo-saxon.
Si tu ne savais pas ça, t'es naïf et ignorant! Si tu le savais, t'es hypocrite et manipulateur. Compris?

Puis arranges ton orthographe et ta ponctuation.
 
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Techman

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De plus Lionel Groulx était financé par le Premier Ministre du Canada. Pourquoi? Des hommes comme King, Meighen et Borden étaient des profonds racistes et antisémites qui préféraient cacher leurs petits secrets côchons et le mettre sur le dos des autres. Quand tu comprendras ça, tu comprendras la petite face sale de l impérialisme et colonialisme anglo-saxon.


Ah yes...just like everything else that's wrong in Quebec...c'est la faute du federale!

It's not like France was ever imperialist or into colonization....:cool:
 

Cosmo

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Techman said:
Ah yes...just like everything else that's wrong in Quebec...c'est la faute du federale!

It's not like France was ever imperialist or into colonization....:cool:


France maybe,but not Quebec as far as I know.
But we digress,this thread was about Herouxville and the so-called accomodatrions.

Hydragoat,

Je suis d'accord avec toi,mais donne-lui une chance,player-82est probablement un anglo.Mais au moins il s'efforce a communiquer en français.Faut au moins lui reconnaitre ça.

cosmo
 
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JustBob

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metoo4 said:
The Y is a public facility, designed to be accessible to anybody who cares to obey by the rules set by the Y and society. This is not a private home or a private matter, it's public. It only private in the sense of fundings but public in any other ways, same as a restaurant. For example, at home, you could refuse Black peoples access but, the Y and restaurants can't. That's only 1 difference between private and public, there's many others and, the "frosting" decision is one of these differences.

Don't forget the YMCA is not a Montréal concept: it exist all over North America. This only add to the "public" dimension of the YMCA.

Dude, no offense but to equate "public" with "the public can go there" is pretty silly and I personnally don't know anyone who would use that definition. There's MacDonalds all across America too but that doesn't make these establishments "public".

I agree with the earlier statement that the Y made a stupid business decision without consulting it's members on the issue first. All they had to do was say no.
 

Mike Mercury

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Techman said:
Ah yes...just like everything else that's wrong in Quebec...c'est la faute du federale!

It's not like France was ever imperialist or into colonization....:cool:

The French? Again the fault of the French. The French were the fairest colonizers of all. The rumours of Africans, Asians and Pacific Islanders being purposely infected with syphilis or small pox are completely unfounded Anglo Saxon propaganda. The French gracefully decolonized Viet Nam only to see the Americans ruthlessly imperialize it. Napoleonic France tried to spread Fraternité, Liberté et Égalité throughout the world only to have all the world's monarchies visciously fight for the priviledges of their aristocracies rather than allow for the liberation of their own people's.

I have loads of these , less than well known, facts.;)
 

metoo4

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Mar 27, 2004
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If only I knew...
JB, if you go to McDo totally drunk and they call the cops because you cause problems, you will be charged with "being impaired in a public place" and "causing disorder in a public place", not "being drunk at McDo's place".

A place is deemed public if the general population is implicitly invited to visit, without any other formal invitation. A place can be a private place, in terms of who owns it and it can be a public place as far as who can visit it.

Same as a cinema:
You buy a ticket, you're invited in. Anybody who buy a ticket is invited in. At this time, it's a public place.
If the cinema hold a special event for some special group, they can send invitation to specific peoples and, no matter what, if you're not on the list, you don't get in. Now this same cinema just became a private place.

If the Y would have consulted the members and the members would have said "frost the windows" then, it would be a non-issue.
If the Y would only accept peoples on special invitation, targeting only certain peoples, this again would not be an issue. But the Y accept anybody so the Y is a public place, not a private club.

You can check the legal definition of "public place" if you wish, not what peoples are saying or how peoples use the term, the legal definition.
-Why do you think you can't legally get sex in a strip club but, with the same person, you can do it in a motel room? The SC isn't private, the motel room is.
-Did you know your car can be considered a "public place", if you're having sex in it, in the middle of a shopping center parking, on a Thursday evening? But it's not a "public place" if you're doing the same thing in the middle of nowhere with all your windows frosted. Technicalities of our legal system... :)
 
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Mike Mercury

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Cosmo said:
mais donne-lui une chance,player-82est probablement un anglo.Mais au moins il s'efforce a communiquer en français.Faut au moins lui reconnaitre ça.

cosmo

Okay d'abord. J'exprime ma reconnaissance envers player-82.
Il n'a rien dit que je n'ai pas entendu auparavant.:eek:
 

Techman

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Dec 23, 2004
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hydragoat said:
The French? Again the fault of the French. The French were the fairest colonizers of all. The rumours of Africans, Asians and Pacific Islanders being purposely infected with syphilis or small pox are completely unfounded Anglo Saxon propaganda. The French gracefully decolonized Viet Nam only to see the Americans ruthlessly imperialize it. Napoleonic France tried to spread Fraternité, Liberté et Égalité throughout the world only to have all the world's monarchies visciously fight for the priviledges of their aristocracies rather than allow for the liberation of their own people's.

I have loads of these , less than well known, facts.;)

I really needed a big smile to end my week at work. Thanks for providing it my friend! :D
 

JustBob

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johnhenrygalt said:
Ownership of private property entails the concomitant fundamental rights of usus, fructus and abusus, subject only to restrictions prescribed by law. The Y owns its property and can do with it as it pleases. As long as the window frosting did not violate any municipal bylaw, it's none of anyone else's business.

Correct. And any other made-up definition is just playing semantics games with the word "public". The keyword here is "ownership", not "public". And most people understand the basic concepts of "public" and private" sectors.
 
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Cosmo

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johnhenrygalt said:
I'm bald. Does that make me a minority?



The "big picture" demand respect for private property.



No. The Y is a private club.

I realise this is a difficult concept for you, but I doubt it is beyond your grasp. So for pedagogical purposes, it may be instructive to return to first principles and the concept of private property, which is the bedrock of Quebec culture and tradition. Ownership of private property entails the concomitant fundamental rights of usus, fructus and abusus, subject only to restrictions prescribed by law. The Y owns its property and can do with it as it pleases. As long as the window frosting did not violate any municipal bylaw, it's none of anyone else's business.


Wether it's private, public or whatever is irrevelent.The fact remain,they were allowed to say no without any consequeces.They were pressured by outsiders to frost their windows, all they had to do is say no.
They should have asked their members before doing it instead of telling them bullshit.
I think the answer would have been a resounding NO.

And yes,I beleive the issue is everybody's business.
The demand from the hassidims and the Y 's decission goes against the foudamentals of our society;men and women are equal.
What would happen if Mcdonald or Ymca refuse black pepoles?
It's private property isn't it?
Would they be allowed?
Would it be anybody's business?


cosmo
 

figtree

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They "Forgot" Some Rules

The citizens of Herouxville "forgot" to include some important rules in their list of forbidden activities. How about some of the following:
1) It is not permissible for Catholic priests to molest children,
2) The depiction of cruel torture as in the public display of a man nailed to a cross is not allowed, and perhaps
3) Disturbing the peace by the ringing of church bells causing noise pollution is not tolerated.
Until they include some of these rules, the world will see them for what they are - bigots!
Hopefully the courts will let them know that they have no jurisdiction over the areas that they have addressed in our tolerant society.
 
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