Herouxville:Them damm bastards do not know what dammage they have done to themselves.

[metoo4]

Figtree, they know they don't have jurisdiction. What they did was a resolution. It have nothing to do with any type of law, municipal or otherwise. This resolution have no legal value whatsoever and never will, and they know it. Stop confusing court stuff with this issue, it will never be heard in any court because it's not a law and no court can stop peoples from expressing themself, even if what they're saying is not that intelligent or that well presented. There is nothing heinous or slanderous in this resolution so, nothing for any court to look at.

Peoples, read and don't say stuff about things you don't know! This is how this Herouxville resolution started: uninformed peoples talking about stuff they had no clue about.

 

[Cosmo]

The citizens of Herouxville "forgot" to include some important rules in their list of forbidden activities. How about some of the following:
1) It is not permissible for Catholic priests to molest children,
2) The depiction of cruel torture as in the public display of a man nailed to a cross is not allowed, and perhaps
3) Disturbing the peace by the ringing of church bells causing noise pollution is not tolerated.
Until they include some of these rules, the world will see them for what they are - bigots!
Hopefully the courts will let them know that they have no jurisdiction over the areas that they have addressed in our tolerant society.

figtree,

I'm an atheist but I do beleive in respect of traditions,heritage and common values.
The Catholic priests molesting children, I agree with you that they could include it.Although I,m sure many Imams and gurus from other religions aren't exacly without any faults yet they keep preaching.
The crucified man is part of a tradition that has been with the majority of the population that's been living here for about 400 years.Ditto for the bells.
So out of respect for the founding majority people I can tolerate both these symbols.
If you don't,nobody's holding you back--you could go to Saoudi Arabia,and many other midle-eastern countries where such symbols as catholic churches and crucifix are beign burn down.
And you won't hear any bells.


cosmo

 

[Big Daddy]

I think that Canada has a cultural problem. On one hand, Canadians want to say that they are liberal and accepting, and on the other hand they don't seem to like the customs that the immigrants bring with them. If French people want to preserve their culture and not assimilate with rest of the Canada, immigrants notice it and follow suit.

US, on the other hand, is unforgiving. Regardless of your country of origin or religion etc. you cannot get a holiday for religious purposes and get paid for it. If you break the US law then you will be prosecuted, it is as simple as that. The religious value defense will not work in US.

I have never seen anyone using their religious holiday excuse to not to come to work in the US. If someone wants to take a day off for religious reason then that day will be taken from "paid time off days."

Herouxville's government officials can do whatever they want, but to me they appear as conservative as any muslim state. It is more like a French Canadian going to Saudi Arabia and Saudi government giving him/her a list of things that he/she can and cannot do.

I am not for or against the Herouxville's policy except that it seems conservative. If Qubec decides to be a conservative province then this policy is ok. People should be allowed to be proud of their culture. However, they should also know that any policies to protect their culture will result in low economic growth because the protectionist measures will discourage entrepruners from other cultures to come to the region.

If Canadians start recognizing and valuing individual acheivements over pride in their cultures then some of these problems may go away. However, Canada would soon start resembling USA and life in Canada will become less friendly and more stressful.

Finally, I think that the whole thing could have been handled better. The governmental officials of Herouxville could have mentioned immigrants' need to assimilate more subtley. Some thing to the effect of asking immigrants to get familirized with Canadian law and customs, and providing training sessions would have gone a long way.

P.S.: I don't know how to use the spell checker and I know that there are spelling errors in this post so I offer my applogies in advance. Also, I am not trying to offend anyone, but just highlighting that any governmental social policy will create some problems and there is no one policy that will make everyone happy.

 

[figtree]

Cosmo,
Your comments confirm the need for a charter of rights and freedoms in a democracy. Sure it is easy to say we respect the traditions of the majority (such as the public display of human torture as depicted by crucifixes) however, this does not mean that the traditions of minorities are not worthy of respect. Surely in a free and open society we can accommodate the needs of all without infringing on the rights of others.
If someone dislikes veils, or womens' bodies or whatever, they simply can look away.
Comparisons with Saudi Arabia are unproductive. To compare us with a country where human rights simply don't exist is of little constructive value.
Above all, we must constantly be vigilant in our defense of human rights. Even here in our beloved Canada we have seen peoples' property seized and the people incarcerated only because of ethnic origin. These were citizens like you and me. I'm speaking, of course, about Canadian citizens of Japanese descent during the second world war.

 

[Cosmo]

Yeah of course but that happenned 60-70 years ago.
I don't think it would happen in 2007 quite frankly.

The Saoudi Arabia comparison goes to prove that Herouxville or not ,Canada/quebec is the most tolerant country with the most tolerant peoples in the world.And it was not actually a comparison but more like a suggestion.You don't want to see any crucifix or hear bells ringing?
Fine, go to a country where you won't see any and hear any.It's that simple.
I can live and tolerate it, why can't you?
Take Australia,France and even Holland if you if you don't like S.A.comparison,these coutries are free democracy and are starting to take actions to ensure that immigants and minorities based on religion, fully understand that there are common values to be accepted and if not,well,no one dragged you here,and no one will hold you back.

Wether you like it or not the tortured man is a symbol that as been with us,the majority,since the beggining of colonisation and to compare it to traditions of recently arrived minority is unfair.
As for the traditions of others,sure we can accomodate,some of them at least,as long as it does not goes against common values.

The charter is being abused by extremist minorities who are fully aware that their minorities status ensures them that they can play the discrimination card, if their demands--silly or not--are beign refused.
And the weakness of our authorities is another card in their deck.
When I take a trip in Montreal and I see all these synagogues,moskes,temples,community centres,jewish,muslims schools, I hardly beleive that we are not living in a free and open society.To deny it just because we ask for a little respect towards the traditions set by our ancestors is a lot more against our common values than ask for a little effort of integration on their part.


cosmo

 

[figtree]

Cosmo,
Thanks for your well considered comments. To clarify, I am not against the display of crucifixes or the ringing of church bells. In my original comment I was trying to point out how discriminatory the rules of Herouxville really were. Surely if we can tolerate the ringing of bells and the public display of crucifixes we can also tolerate someone who passes us in the street wearing a veil. It would seem to me that the veil is less obtrusive.
France has made and continues to make a serious mistake. The government's actions of September 2005 to ban religious symbols in publicly supported institutions while ignoring the ghettoization of one tenth of the population, job discrimination, marginalization, etc. will only breed more contempt, violence and ongoing conflict. France passed that legislation under the guise of laicité, however there are still public celebrations of only one religion's holidays and public moneys spent on buildings belonging to one religion. When John Paul II died, the same schools that do not permit the veil because of laicité flew their flags at half mast. The level of racism in France is not something we should aspire to. I'd rather see a turban on a mountie than have 5000 cars burned.

 

[Cosmo]

France did not asked any of those minorities to emigrate in.
This country(france) existed for milleniums w/o any muslims.
They were there way before any muslims set foot in, so once again it should be enough to grant them a minimum of respect towards thier institutions ,religion and common values.
Once again any new immigrants refusing to adapt to their way of life or offended by the fact that christianism still has a priority, were not forced to stay in.
The serious mistake they made was to allow them to ghetthoised themselves.
Cause you see, integration works both ways,the new comer has to accept the greeting countries values and try to integrate themselves and it's not by imposing their own values,symbols,religion and way of life that they will succeed in doing so.They have to make some serious concessions.
As for the veil beign less obtrusive than a crucifix or bells ringing,that is YOUR opinion,not necessarily shared by all,obviously.
Pesonally I see it as a statement more than anything else.
No longer than yesterday,the queen of Jordania(what a babe! ) said that no where in the koran does it mention that you have to wear a veil or a burka in order to practise islam.
There are many muslims who practice their religion quietly at home on their own terms without anything on their heads and without having to leave work or classes to pray.And they don't bother no body.
As a matter of fact a lot of muslims and other minorities don't want to have any religious constaraints imposed upon them.Some have left their countries in order to avoid such constraints.
If I understand your way of thinking,all they(france) had to do to integrate them was to let them do whatever they want,not refuse them anything,not to impose them anything other wise they(minorities) will rebel and cause violence.
In other words try to buy peace.Just like a kid crying for a candy,give him is candy and he will shut up,don't give him the candy and he will become even more noisy.
Like I said,if anyone was/is offended by the fact that France has not removed some of their religious symbols but have asked immigrants minorities to do so, were not forced to stay in France.
Most of the first waves of immigrants were greeted with far more hostility and intolerance than the current ones.
Yet they didn't try to impose themselves upon the greeting majority.Instead they tried to integrate by blending in with the majority and accepted the sacrifice that comes with immigration, and did with pride and courage.
Sure, some had their churches,markets,scholls ect...but they did it within the confines of said values--not against it.
The 5000 cars burnt were not entierly Frances fault.Once again those who did those riots had to try and integrate themselves.
Like I said, first waves of immigrants did not have it easy either, yet they did not destroy the greeting countries values and traditions.
The turban in RCMP is a total provocation and only goes to prove the weakness of our authorities and the the fact that some extremists exploit the charter to make a political statement.
Thanks for discussing politely.


cosmo

 

[Techman]

The riots in France were not caused by the government's policies on religious symbols.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Paris_suburb_riots

 

[EagerBeaver]

Why don't one of you guys drive up to Herouxville wearing a turban and bring a ladyfriend wearing a veil and see what happens? Talk and words on paper are cheap, I want some real deeds that we can discuss.

 

[Cosmo]

Why don't one of you guys drive up to Herouxville wearing a turban and bring a ladyfriend wearing a veil and see what happens? Talk and words on paper are cheap, I want some real deeds that we can discuss.

It has been done my friend.
No longer than last week Imam Said Jaziri along with a veil wearing woman travelled to Herouxville and were greeted with zero hostility.
They brought a camera and were trying to show how intolerant were the citizens of Herouxville.Instead they were made to look like a buch of provocative fools.
That provocative sob(Jaziri) is an extremist feared and rejected by alot of peoples in his own community.
Not to mention he lied to Canadian immigration about having a criminal record in France.And he comes here badmouthing our authorities,lectures us and tried to get the sharia law for muslims.
Authorities are on his case and if faced with deportation, he threatens to barricade hmself in his moske on Belanger street(AL-QODS).
Some example of integration!
Nice way to thank the country who offers him freedom.
Hopefully he's not representative of the whole community.

cosmo

 

[Big Daddy Cool]

Did anyone here the latest stupidity coming from these minority religious groups? Now they want the cross removed from Mont Royal because it offends the Muslims, Jews and other non Christian groups. To those who are offended I say "GO FUCK YOURSELVES". Ever since that son of a bitch Trudeau introduced multiculturalism our nation has been losing its identity a peace at a time. Here's a news flash for you. Canada was not meant to be a multicultural nation it was meant to have its own identity like every other nation in the world. Canada was also meant to have three sub cultures: British, French and First Nations. Before the 60 that’s the way it was and those migrating here were expected to adapt and assimilate into our collective. But since the left and Trudeau said that's it's ok for new comers to spit in our face and act like they never left their country it's us as Canadians who are now losing our culture.

metoo4's first post on this thread gave great examples of what I'm talking about and here's another. In high schools in Toronto cafeterias use to sell hot food during lunch hour just like here, but the Muslims and Jews made such a fuss about pork and beef being served in the schools they were attending that now no food is served. Thank you very much lefties for cowering to these groups rather than telling them to fuck off.

Now I have no problems with different ethnic, racial and religious groups coming to Canada, but remember that we have a collective culture, norms and values of our own here, this is a Christian country and we speak English, French and various aboriginal languages here. This means if you going the RCMP or our police force you use the same uniform as the rest of us. This means no Turban. If a woman wants a drivers license than no hijab. Your kid goes to school than no karpan or any other weapons. We never asked you to come here so it's you who have to adapt to us, not us to you. GET IT?

 

[Techman]

Canada was not meant to be a multicultural nation it was meant to have its own identity like every other nation in the world. Canada was also meant to have three sub cultures: British, French and First Nations.

BDC, Canada was not 'meant' to be anything. Like any other country, at least the civilized ones, it has to adapt to the changing world. It's how we adapt that is the big problem. Minor adjustments can be made but the major adjustments have to be made by those who choose to come here. It is their responsibility to adapt to our way of life, not our responsibility to adapt our way of life to them. Cultural diversity can be a fantastic thing if we can learn how to avoid the cultural conflicts that tend to come with it. They key is balance, the difficulty is in finding it.

 

[Cosmo]

Multi-culturalism....ah what an utupia!
Everybody living toghther in peace and harmony holding each other's hands.
In a perfect world maybe.
Unfortunately such is not the case in most occidental countries who adopted multi-culturalism.

French writer Michel Bruckner wrote a book about occidental's failures trying to integrate their immigrants with multi culturalism.
You think it's a mess here in Canada with Kirpas in schools,turban in RCMP, Herouxville and all?
Go to England and see what a real mess is all about.
England' policices are would you beleive, even more permissive than ours,belive it or not.
They did a survey amongst young muslims living in their ghettos.
Some of them were born in UK yet didn,t even speak english(rings a bell?) despite the fact that they were born there.
Even worst,30% of those surveyd said that they understood and support the many terrorists attacks that took place in the last few yeras including those in England.And they added that if called upon duty they would'nt hesitate to do the same!!!
Very reassuring isn't it?
And what a nice way to thank the country that greeted you,your family and offered you peace and freedom.
Bruckner said that we, as a western society, do not have to feel sory for what we are and should not feel guilty and move out of our ways in order to please anyone.

cosmo

 

[figtree]

Cosmo,
Well, Big Daddy Cool certainly brought it down a notch. Yes, thank you, Cosmo, as well for your respectful insights into this very important matter. Although I consider myself to be as Canadian as the Maple Leaf, my ancestors came to Canada from Europe in the 1880's. If your arguments for assimilation are to hold water, then you have to be a First Nations person. Your culture and mine imposed themselves on the majority culture and utterly changed it without so much as an "excuse me". This is precisely why minority rights must be protected. Let us ask ourselves that if one day Moslems are in the majority in Canada (and it can happen with a higher than average birthrate), will we be accepting of Sharia Law if it is voted in in a referendum. I think not. Then we will be a minority wishing that we had a charter to protect our rights.
Again, I want to thank you for sharing your views. I have learned a lot from you.

 

[Cosmo]

Thanks figtree,

Sure the natives were here first,but we must remember one thing;
There are actually two nations that developped the country as it became:England and France.
Canada was based on immigration from day one, but there are 2 founding peoples,unfortunately for the natives.
We can't ask all europeans colonisers to move back to europe, simply because they are the ones who actually built the country,even if they forced themselves on first nations.
Those events took place centuries ago as oppose to what's happening today.
And are not of anyboy's faults unlike hostility to integrate from recently arrived immigrants who were faced with choice to either accept or leave.
I'm not sure your or my ancestors were faced with such dilemna.
You are right on target about you beign as candaian as any one who immigrated here and accepted the laws,traditions,heritage and common values of the country.And became productive citizen instead of constant antagonist.
As for us majority to become a minority one day is a possibility that we face,but quite frankly it's one of the many reasons we want to integrate the minorities,to make them become part of us.Not us and them type society.Just like most of them have become FULLY INTEGRATED in the past centuries.Most immigrants consider themselves 100% quebcois/canadians and rightfully so, without forgeting where they come from.
Most immigrants are actually part of the majority is what I'm rtying to say.
Like I said if all muslims(or any other minorities) extremists were to form the majority it would cause an eventual problem even a threat,but fortunately I do not believe that such is the case,although we seem to ear only from the extremists manipulative minority and not from the quiet majority.

cosmo

 

[Big Daddy Cool]

First, my father is a Métis and my granddad a First Nations person while my mom's side is from Europe so I'm mixed.

Second, First Nations people had to adapt to the British and French cultures to the point where the culture of first Nations people have all but been destroyed. This is what makes multiculturalism such an ugly thing. What little First Nation culture there is left has been severely marginalized in a sea of many other cultures that now over shadow what should be a main stream culture. Since First Nations people were forced to adapt and now accepted most of the British and French culture so should new comers coming to Canada. It's only fair.

Third, while most can trace their roots to Britain or France outside from those who can trace their roots to the First Nations, we have developed a culture of our own outside of Britain and France. For example, there is no way Quebecois and French culture are the same as the Quebecois people have developed their own lingo, habits, values, expressions, foods and etc outside of the culture of France. The same can be said about the Anglophones in Canada and the USA as well as the Spanish speaking people of Latin America. For example Mexican culture grew up different from Spain because they protected their culture they have a stronger collective identity than Canadians.

In essence, new comers most adapt to us, not us to them.

 

[Techman]

...although we seem to ear only from the extremists manipulative minority and not from the quiet majority.

And that's a big part of the problem. It's up to the majority of any cultural group to express themselves and to make their feelings known. Their community leaders should also take the lead in controlling the radical elements in their society. But they simply stand by and do nothing and then they complain when they are all painted with the same brush.

 

[Big Daddy Cool]

Cosmo,
I like what you said at the end of your post regarding the minorities. Usually it's the vocal minority that over shadows the passive majority of any group. What's so sad is that we make concesions for the radical minorty while most are just content to live life on a daily bases.

As for the majority becoming the minority, that will only happen if we allow it to happen like we are today with our floodgates sprunged wide open for the rest of the world to pure in.

 

[Cosmo]

Cosmo,
I like what you said at the end of your post regarding the minorities. Usually it's the vocal minority that over shadows the passive majority of any group. What's so sad is that we make concesions for the radical minorty while most are just content to live life on a daily bases.

As for the majority becoming the minority, that will only happen if we allow it to happen like we are today with our floodgates sprunged wide open for the rest of the world to pure in.

BDC,

The vocal and manipulative minority is doing most of the damages and us, the majority, usually oppose the said minority,not the quiet majority.
But in doing so, most of those manipulative extremists are turning this whole debate in a racial/intolerance debate.
And are trying to turn their peers against us.
And wether you like it or not they are clever and wise and are using our weaknesses(racism/intolerance) as a tool to serve their deeds.
They know damn well that we are sacred to death beign called racist and intolerant and that it'a very delicate subject matter,so they beat it to death.

cosmo

 

[Cosmo]

And that's a big part of the problem. It's up to the majority of any cultural group to express themselves and to make their feelings known. Their community leaders should also take the lead in controlling the radical elements in their society. But they simply stand by and do nothing and then they complain when they are all painted with the same brush.

I've heared many soft muslims called radio hosts(Martineau,Proulx,Gendron,Fabi,Pelletier amongst other) and voice their opinions and most of them are against ''reasonnable'' accomodations and want nothing to do with the manipulative minority.

cosmo