That is what many SPs are trying to sell as GFE. I stick with the actual acts, DFK, BBBJ, and DATY. If DFK and BBBJ is missing then it is not GFE.
Is it me or PSE/GFE means nothing these days?
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I'm not miffed about things changing. Things always change, and we all have to adapt. The thing you're pointing out though, is something that's just changing for the worse locally, and not everywhere, so it's not exactly the changing of the times here. . I get miffed about people trying to pull the wool over my eyes and treat me like I'm a moron by trying to sell me air and pretend it's perfume. I already go with the ones I like, and don't need your advice to do it. I've also been around enough not to be a sucker for market speak. When I read your response all I could see is:
Now we know that ''safe GFE'' doesn't include bbbj and daty, and that some providers don't know what GFE actually means. So the solution to that is to ask the providers you are booking if they offer dfk, bbbj and daty, and if these are charged as extras. Problem solved! Multiple providers myself included actually offer ''real GFE''. I don't charge extra for the other acronyms because I decided to have an all inclusive rate. Same thing that Raya mentioned earlier in this thread.
Why lol? We’re in agreement. Be smart, ask for what you want, see who you trust. I just don’t see any point (or point of reference) in complaining about “how things used to be.” I imagine in a few years it’ll be me all upset with some “back in my day” tales.
DFK is so hot with an SP and appreciated !
Well, we know what some here would have to say, GFE stands for here in Montreal, it is a list of acronyms.
Let's tell them not to search it's meaning online. Because if it is just a list of acronyms, it seems world wide it has a different meaning than what is being stomped and shouted as it standing for here.It doesn't seem to mean the same thing that is being stated on this board. Search it and see. Hobbiest in Montreal is not the deciding factor on a term that has a universal meaning the world over.
Sigh. You’re completely missing the point. This has absolutely nothing to do with “back in the day” despite the fact that I referred to the origins of the term. Nostalgia doesn’t figure into it at all.
Let’s try a different approach. Forget the past ever existed, there is no past and reality starts from this very moment. I have given you a simple, clear and concise definition of what “GFE” means. If I was going to a store where they sold sexual services in other locations and I asked the clerk to sell me a package of GFE he would just reach behind the counter, pull out a box, and give it to me, because he would know exactly what I meant, because his understanding of the product and my understanding of the product would be exactly the same. When I go to the store next door and ask for the same thing he just reaches under his counter and gives me another box of the same thing. That’s my reality in most places.
OK, now we’re in Montreal. You’re going to the store and you want to buy a package of GFE and you ask the clerk for one. He says “what do you mean? What’s that? I have this and this and this and this. Which one would you like?” You are now faced with having to explain what your understanding of GFE is to him. What definition are you going to use to explain it that’s simple and easy to understand? Think about that for a second. OK, now you’ve thought about it and you've told him and you’ve gotten what you want from the clerk based on his available options to you. You go to the store next door and asked for another box of GFE and he says “What’s that?” and lists 4 other products that aren’t the same as the store next door so the definition you came up with is worthless and you have to start all over again. That’s what the market is like here.
So, when I complain about the use of the term what I’m railing against is the lack of consistency in what it means and the problems it creates when dealing with the expectations of the customer. It could mean anything at all, literally anything, so long as it means the same thing for everybody. In most places it does. Here it doesn’t, and people who expect to receive a certain service don’t, necessarily, because you can't take the term GFE at face value here like you can somewhere else. You told me “just ask them”, and that’s good advice for here, and something I always do up front anyway, but it also shouldn’t be as necessary as it is and you shouldn’t have to worry about everyone giving you a different interpretation of the term. People do this regularly right now in order to be able to use GFE as a piece of their marketing, but the way that it gets used here makes the term virtually meaningless. This isn’t about glorifying the past. You can invent a new term or come up with a meaning for GFE right here, right now, give it to everyone and if they accept it and take it on board and use it so that it meant the same thing for everybody then I’d be happy as a clam, no matter what it meant or what was included.
So, what definition would you like to use that's simple, clear and easy to understand?
@urquell is right, of course. GFE has traditionally meant BBBJ + DFK. If it doesn't mean that anymore, then it doesn't mean anything; there's no such thing as "safe GFE." As for it being a style, well, what's the style? How many SPs advertise that they're aloof clock watchers who are uninterested in kindness, conversation, or connection?
It seems to me that SPs often present themselves as both more and less professional than in the past. They're more professional because they're sex workers ("escort" is just another euphemism) who deserve to be respected for the services they provide. I agree with this, of course. On the other hand, they appear to be less professional because those services are no longer a defined set of acts that can be identified through acronyms but have become an interpersonal abstraction centered on the SP's capacity to care for the emotional needs of clients. In this sense, sex workers are not sex workers. Thus GFE seems to mean: "I will be caring; I will be passionate; I will make you feel seen." Those are all fine things and may be worth paying for. (That also describes teachers, therapists, many medical professionals, life coaches, financial advisers, etc.) And it does seem that many, many men seek out an emotional experience, which is fine.
But problems arise. For one thing, without an agreed-upon definition, any SP can advertise as offering GFE. For another, as we repeatedly see out here, some clients become resentful that their profound emotional experience was a timed professional experience for the SP. Weirdly, it seems to me that more and more clients are feeling hurt by SPs who, after an intimate session, don't call, don't write.
Some SPs are friendly, fun, and good at making connections; some aren't. It has always been that way. In my experience, the fact that an SP or agency advertises GFE doesn't in any way equate to good "chemistry" or connection. How could it? We're all different. And so, again, if GFE doesn't mean specific, agreed-upon services, it really means nothing at all.
It seems to me that SPs often present themselves as both more and less professional than in the past. They're more professional because they're sex workers ("escort" is just another euphemism) who deserve to be respected for the services they provide. I agree with this, of course. On the other hand, they appear to be less professional because those services are no longer a defined set of acts that can be identified through acronyms but have become an interpersonal abstraction centered on the SP's capacity to care for the emotional needs of clients. In this sense, sex workers are not sex workers. Thus GFE seems to mean: "I will be caring; I will be passionate; I will make you feel seen." Those are all fine things and may be worth paying for. (That also describes teachers, therapists, many medical professionals, life coaches, financial advisers, etc.) And it does seem that many, many men seek out an emotional experience, which is fine.
But problems arise. For one thing, without an agreed-upon definition, any SP can advertise as offering GFE. For another, as we repeatedly see out here, some clients become resentful that their profound emotional experience was a timed professional experience for the SP. Weirdly, it seems to me that more and more clients are feeling hurt by SPs who, after an intimate session, don't call, don't write.
Some SPs are friendly, fun, and good at making connections; some aren't. It has always been that way. In my experience, the fact that an SP or agency advertises GFE doesn't in any way equate to good "chemistry" or connection. How could it? We're all different. And so, again, if GFE doesn't mean specific, agreed-upon services, it really means nothing at all.
I’ve already stated what I think it means. GFE is a style of service, wherein the provider acts like and treats you more like a girlfriend, rather than a set of acronyms. PSE being a rougher, more sexually explicit version of that style. That’s how I’ve always understood it.
You say history doesn’t play but the only reason the shop owner knows what you want it to mean when you say GFE is because you and he have had it previously established as such. There’s no signage and this ain’t in the city bylaws.
I’m not from MTL so my perspective isn’t based on that. GFE, for me, hasn’t ever consistently meant what YOU think it means in this city or elsewhere that I’ve seen a provider. Nor have I read it to the be the things you want it to be online unanimously.
That’s why I’m confused with all the vitriol. You’re saying it’s a known standard, I’m saying I haven’t experienced that, so somewhere sometime it changed. Either way, this is the new normal so we can rail at the times or we can save our breath for the real enemies for whom we all should be united against: restaurants that use shredded cheese on poutine. That’s a change in clear defiance of man and God.
there's always a double meaning to GFE and PSE
there's the technical term which includes the acronyms we are accustomed to.
and then there's the experience or demeanor that the girl provides.
some girls are just so into it like Nike slogan, they just wanna "JUST DO IT" and its practically PSE which acronym-wise is basically GFE but the manner they provide it gives a PSE impression "F*** my face!"
some girls will provide the GFE acronyms but have that sensual genuine side added to it, to which the term GFE+ started appearing.
Over the years PSE has become so technical, its as if, the providers deem PSE strictly restriction based. Example: if you start touching her hair, BOOM, that's PSE extra! ok...
Because I am sure all the brothers have taken PSE options, and it could be the most bland experience, but the acronyms are available. Did you feel like you were in a porn movie? absolutely not.
Obviously some services should be an extra, and should be considered PSE extras, and the girls who provide them don't even consider themselves PS'.
so for me, its just attitude.
there's the technical term which includes the acronyms we are accustomed to.
and then there's the experience or demeanor that the girl provides.
some girls are just so into it like Nike slogan, they just wanna "JUST DO IT" and its practically PSE which acronym-wise is basically GFE but the manner they provide it gives a PSE impression "F*** my face!"
some girls will provide the GFE acronyms but have that sensual genuine side added to it, to which the term GFE+ started appearing.
Over the years PSE has become so technical, its as if, the providers deem PSE strictly restriction based. Example: if you start touching her hair, BOOM, that's PSE extra! ok...
Because I am sure all the brothers have taken PSE options, and it could be the most bland experience, but the acronyms are available. Did you feel like you were in a porn movie? absolutely not.
Obviously some services should be an extra, and should be considered PSE extras, and the girls who provide them don't even consider themselves PS'.
so for me, its just attitude.
Sex workers have always offered more than just pure raw sex, this isn't a new thing.. I've done some research and I've talked to a lot of women who have been in the industry for longer than I have.
I was watching this documentary about a brothel in the UK set in 2015. The women working there are far from being high class escorts, but they all say the same thing. They get all kinds of requests from their clients, and they all come for different reasons. I know a woman who worked for an agency in the 2000's and she describes similar experiences, men talking to her about their lives, yes obviously she had sex with them but some requested cuddling and other types of intimacy, some gave her presents and photos they took on vacation.
I think the fact that men are angry and hurt by the fact that there are boundaries for our services has to do with other societal factors than how we advertise our services, personally. The vast majority of my clients aren't angry I am not dating them for real or jealous of others even if we do develop a connection over time. I have chats in between bookings occasionally with some of my clients, we sometimes share music, cute pictures etc. I have given people a bit of extra time when I could before as well. They understand the nature of our relationship and the boundaries.
However, when I look at this forum, I am shocked by the bitterness and hurt feelings of some people.. and while I do feel for them I feel like it's up to them to work through these feelings. I think there are some discourses online that have popped up in the past 10 years that are at the root of this, as well as the loneliness that a lot of people have been feeling since the pandemic.
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I think its because historically, on this board at least, it was a standard on what GFE meant for a little while. I agree now you see a lot of different variation, safe gfe, gfe+, pse etc. Its getting harder to find yourself in all of this.
One service i see less and less often (to a point its almost gone) is providers saying they offer "full service" or "service complet" in french. It used to mean you could... well... have sex with her. Basic as that. There was no kissing and bj was always covered. When GFE became the norm, thats what guys wanted and honestly i would see no incentive for an escort today to advertise "full service" ... Thats basically like announcing from the get go what you DON'T DO.
Instead we started to see safe gfe, or "safe services only". Honestly im an old timer and i am not even sure if providers who does "safe gfe" or everything safe kiss... cause technically kissing is uncovered... unless you put a saranwrap between both lips... lol.
Quite honestly i kinda don't even want to bother with this. I pretty much drawn the line at "GFE" personally. I love my cim/cof finishes (bonus points for swallow) but i will book providers who don't do it if they are super hot and i really want to meet them. BUT if BJ is with a rubber... no thanks. That said BJ is what i prefer, over penetration, so maybe for a guy who only do 5 min of BJ and just want to pound her hard for 40mins ... then maybe he would not mind the covered BJ.
PSE is the oddball because what does it even mean today? It used to be linked to anal... but for me the very essence of a porno is the COF at the end. Yet some agencies started to use "pse" for a simple cim... for me its GFE+. PSE should be a COF, but it seem not everyone agree on that. Heck you can even say that for a true PSE filming should be included... like you truly are experiencing being a pornstar that way.
Ultimately i believe the best is when providers are clear and list the acronymes they will do. That way you know what to expect... And its not like its illegal for them as technically its only illegal for clients to buy, not for them to sell (a dumb concept but whatever)
Yeah that's exactly it. I offer some services that should be considered PSE extras, but I don't want to be choked and spat on and having my hair pulled and I am not a fan of dirty talking particularly if it's calling me a bitch or a dirty whore. I don't want surprise anal. (I could call that something else but some people here won't agree) My service is friendly, warm, sensual and gentle but I'm not a porn star.
I think it's interesting that you say GFE became the norm at some point, because that implies it wasn't always the norm.. which is an advantage to clients honestly, and it contradicts what some people say here, about SP offering less and less services at higher and higher rates.
I arrived here around the time GFE was at its peak i think, altough i can't be sure. But i still saw the term "full service" used on some classified ads and i learn fast that Merb was "the hot thing" and i should stay away from Backpage (wich Leolist became the spiritual successor) or annonce 123 or other classified ads website.
I do recall one agency wich was called Montreal Angels i think (to not confuse with Angel Escorts) that had 1 or 2 "Safe-GFE" providers but otherwise it was not something you saw on Merb much.
I wouldn't say that SPs offer less and less services but i do agree that since Covid there has been a HUGE increase in prices on the indy side. Not all indies of course, but before Covid you would never see a 800$/h or such. 400 was considered very high end the few at 500 were in the "holy molly" territory. Now 600 seem to be "common". And i noticed some SPs going from 400 to 500 and only less than a year later make the jump to 600 (probably to follow their friends). Is 200$ proportional to the inflation, you tell me...
In contrast agencies seem to have kept rates very reasonable. When i started in 2009, 180/h was the norm but there was some 160 and some 200. Then when Goodgirls arrived in 2012, 200 became the norme for incall but 220 outcall. I think it was Euphoria at some point who did the raise to 240 as standard price (at the time it was a huge discussion lol). Maybe 2015 or 2016? So thinking about it seeing rates between 260 and 280 in 2025 does not seem abnormal to me. It follow inflation.
Its not rocket science that you can't expect to pay the same rates forever in anything. Heck i had to switch my "motus operandi" (i been lucky to have help by a friend with that tough) and go mostly incall compare to outcall because of the higher prices of hotels post-covid (yes i know they hurt a lot during that, so its not unjustified but still)...
But hey its something we could speak all night. Ultimately its all about supply and demand. If SPs can charge 800$/h and be booked as much as they want, then why would they charge less? When i get irritated is when some SPs imply that if another SP charge much less (lets say 300 or 350) then she is "exploited" and not paid to her just value and yada yada. I had an argument with a foreign escort on this on twitter. The reality is if every providers was 800/h in Montreal and agencies would also raise their rates to that (or lets say not exist at all), the business would collapse. Not every SPs would be booked as she need to , and clients would have to adjust and therefore book less. A client who book 2 times a month for instance at agency rate, he would need to book 1 time per month or even month and a half max because his budget only allow this. All these girls that are currently in the 260-280 market ... most of them would never get enough booking to justify working this job.
Obviously im just speculating as we can't know for sure, but personally if im gonna pay premium price (like 600 or more), ill need reviews, solid reputation etc etc. I will be much less ready to "toftt" based on "good pics" only.
Great..What does that mean? Remember that you're selling a service, so the people that are buying that service are supposed to understand the product you're selling. What's involved? "treat you more like a girlfriend" can mean almost literally anything. The way you're defining it might sense to you, but wouldn't necessarily be clear to anyone else. The definition I have been using is clear and can't be misinterpreted to mean anything else.
And once again, it's not what "I" think it means. I could quite literally point you to thousands of posts across a variety of boards that would underline this point, but even within this thread you'll see it from other members confirming what I said. That's not really the main issue though
Also, again for the peanut gallery, I don't care what services are included in the definition. If picking lint out of a belly button or ear hair plucking is included that's fine. I'm much less hung up on the definition tham I am about the service offering being consistent. You must be able to see how that would be beneficial to clients, right? That's the main issue for me.
Also, to be absolutely clear there is no vitriol. I have no personal animus against you whatsover. This topic, however, drives me bananas, in large part because only here in Montreal have I had to waste so much personal time in discussion about services being offered by people who don't really offer the services they advertise. I very much dislike people either trying to con me or waste my time, and it makes me passionate and energetic in the discussion. I also really hate seeing providers get away with ripping off clients who then come back saying "I guess I really didn't understand properly" as if it's somehow their fault they got hustled. If any of this discussion helps anyone examine their offering more closely and to avoid some of the traps them ir's worth having.
Absolutely true. Sex workers have offered companionship for centuries (eg courtesans) and probably millennia. What's different, in interesting ways, is that they're now called "sex workers." It's a term that self-evidently centers on the professional connection between sex and work. The term "escort," for example, signals companionship much more than "sex worker."
It is indeed a set of societal factors that are shaping the needs (and boundaries) of services. It's fascinating. I'm not a sociologist but I would imagine it's a storm of factors including the precarity of traditional views of the economy, national identities, nature, etc, all exacerbated by the pandemic, as you say. There seems to be a lot of loneliness and isolation.
I suppose one question is: does the ubiquity of the term GFE, combined with its vague, non-sexual connotations, encourage clients' emotional expectations? Or is it just marketing nonsense that frustrates clients who simply want to know what sex they can expect from a sex worker?
''Sex worker'' is just an umbrella term honestly. It can mean stripper, escort, porn actor, OF model, cam girl, dominatrix, masseuse.. I believe the term ''sex worker'' was used by activists to define that what we are doing is actually valid work, not to highlight that this is ''sexual only''.. I call myself an escort personally when I talk about what I do for a living. A lot of the professions I just named involve a social aspect. Strippers and cam girls often do emotional work and have to talk to their clients and create a connection for instance.. And a lot of pro dommes don't even have sex with their clients.
I don't think that the term ''GFE'' encourages unreasonable emotional expectations. These expectations have always existed like you said (courtesans are a big example), and they always will. Some of us have clients book us for an hour or 30 minutes once in a while who will not say one word to us and then suddenly reveal they are ''in love'' with us. I have some clients who book me for much longer periods of time that I have a lot of really fascinating conversations with who are capable of making the distinction between what is happening and a real romantic relationship.
Like I said before, when girls join this industry, really often we are told wrong information by colleagues or we aren't told anything at all. There are a lot of misunderstandings that come out of this. I already was close friends with someone in the industry who told me GFE meant ''oral without a condom'' and kissing, and to avoid advertising myself that way if I didn't want to offer these services. I didn't use the term GFE when I first started escorting yet clients pushed for bbbj a lot even if I charged very low rates at the time, and I ended up giving in. Mind you, I enjoy offering this and I hate cbj, but there are obvious safety concerns associated with it. I personally started advertising openly as GFE because I knew about the emotional aspect of it which is one of my strong suit (I am a caring person and a good listener), and also because I was okay with the acronyms eventually.
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My exs were very hurtful but the sex was good but because of feelings it could not go to the level I needed to go so when I finally got a mistress, it was fantastic with all my fetishes granted ! With SpS the sex is phenomenal as there are no strings attached with no issues and comes with great conversations ! For some reason since there are no feelings I enjoy myself like I really need to with being shamleless and not being judged !
This is not about back in my day tales.
It is about marketing BS, GFE used to mean something without you having to ask if each item you are looking for separately is being offered.
Why not make it simple when you are looking for an SP instead of having to ask in detail for everything and many are using it simply as a way to tack on extras at a cost.
This is one of the reasons I stick with ladies I have known for years I know for a fact that I will have an amazing time and that what I like is going to happen without having to jump through hoops to find out or be disappointed when I finally meet them.
This is exactly why I don’t ever frequent MP, touch the left tit an extra , touch them both at the same time an extra lol. I am there to have a nice time not to calculate the cost of what I like or would want to do.
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