Exactly. That was my point in an earlier post. More dangerous conditions. Are these politicians idiots or what?!
It's Official Canada has adopted Nordic Model Prostitution Law
- Thread starter jons242
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Exactly. That was my point in an earlier post. More dangerous conditions. Are these politicians idiots or what?!
Ha ha, those are excellent!
Another of my cogitation: I think the law is discriminatory against men, but not because of the clients as some people say. The government's argument is that women do it because they have no other options, because of poverty or to pay their drug. When a men is in the same situation he usually has to do some other illegal activities, such as selling drugs or robberies. However people who go into prostitution instead of other crimes are treated as non-criminals and get more support and sympathy. Therefore under the same circumstances of poverty and drug addiction, the law discriminates against men.
That cartoon is so funny and accurate:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BsIql1HCUAE2MRt.jpg:large
Another of my cogitation: I think the law is discriminatory against men, but not because of the clients as some people say. The government's argument is that women do it because they have no other options, because of poverty or to pay their drug. When a men is in the same situation he usually has to do some other illegal activities, such as selling drugs or robberies. However people who go into prostitution instead of other crimes are treated as non-criminals and get more support and sympathy. Therefore under the same circumstances of poverty and drug addiction, the law discriminates against men.
That cartoon is so funny and accurate:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BsIql1HCUAE2MRt.jpg:large
Well definitely not idiots but ,trying to please the majority of the electorate to win another election witch is the goal of any government when there is no limit at there terms like in Canada !!The Conservative are at there third term !!!
To us however ,hobbyist they do seem idiot in there way of thinking about prostitution !!!!!
Controlling consenting adults sex lives is idiot ,and will simply add more pressure to the participants !!!
Its a debate on the heart of the matters is fore Canadian society to answer like in any other Great debates!
Are Canadian incapable of deciding on our on ?Are we less intelligent if we choose other ways?We have the right to choose the laws that governs our conduct ??We are self govern !!!!
The Supreme Court Justices are there as Guardian of our Charter of Rights and Freedom and are liberties !!!
Time will tell if the government will comply with the spirit of the Bedford decision or will the new law need to be challenged in courts ????
Regards all
BookerL
I just want to quote here a post I read on terb (I'm not on terb but I sometimes go to read):
''So I've spoken to a policy adviser at the Department of Justice who gave me some updates. Basically he said what I already knew. Mackay has already instructed everyone that no amendments will be accepted on the bill. (...) The only good news that I really got was there likely won't be any change to enforcing advertising. He says even today there is rare mention of actual sexual services being sold so it is pretty much going to be the status quo under the new law.''
This is what makes the most sense. There is no way to enforce the new law, apart from how the police is already operating. Publishers will be liable for advertising prostitution, but they have to be aware that it refers to actual sexual services. Even if no one is prosecuted, ads can be taken down but it would require a court order and they can't get one for every millions of adds all over the internet that are updated every day.
In fact, the government never said they want to eliminate prostitution. That's just the comforting interpretation religious people have. Peter MacKay has said the federal government wants to abolish prostitution, "to the extent possible,". Everyone who doesn't believe in magic knows the extent possible is Not At All. Therefore, the government is not trying to eliminate prostitution.
''So I've spoken to a policy adviser at the Department of Justice who gave me some updates. Basically he said what I already knew. Mackay has already instructed everyone that no amendments will be accepted on the bill. (...) The only good news that I really got was there likely won't be any change to enforcing advertising. He says even today there is rare mention of actual sexual services being sold so it is pretty much going to be the status quo under the new law.''
This is what makes the most sense. There is no way to enforce the new law, apart from how the police is already operating. Publishers will be liable for advertising prostitution, but they have to be aware that it refers to actual sexual services. Even if no one is prosecuted, ads can be taken down but it would require a court order and they can't get one for every millions of adds all over the internet that are updated every day.
In fact, the government never said they want to eliminate prostitution. That's just the comforting interpretation religious people have. Peter MacKay has said the federal government wants to abolish prostitution, "to the extent possible,". Everyone who doesn't believe in magic knows the extent possible is Not At All. Therefore, the government is not trying to eliminate prostitution.
The Police forces does need to obtain a warrant to investigate
Even if what your saying is true!
The Police forces does need to obtain a warrant to investigate !
This is not a Police Drama and we are not in LaLa land !!!!
Warrant are required so proof obtained will be admissible in court ,if the Police do not present it court, but uses it, as leverage to make someone admit the crime the theory does not hold!
Further more anyone can enter on merb or any other website escort related even if servers are offshore and obtain information that will eventually lead to arrest !
Addresses of incalls are provided freely and phone numbers,website links of agencies that are not offshore, so it becomes easy to backtrack for the police .Without warrants
Its not what you do that counts ,its what the Police thinks you do and the energy they will put to crack down the agencies that is important !
A trained investigator investigator knows his way !
They do poses a interview Manuel that permits them to apply proper techniques of interrogations and also uses accomplished interviewer ?
If you have never been place in that chair?The interrogated one ,I wish for all, it never happens ?
The sites that are offshore are protected against any warrants issued by a Canadian Courts! So you can't force the administrators or board members to supply legally obtain infos ,
But I would prefer to use the term, unauthorized infos because the police goes after the week links ,or people willing to talk freely to them !!
To obtain good and valid leads !!!
The reprehensible act of purchasing sex will be committed here not offshore ?
So if there is not any amendments that changes wording and the purchase remains as it is in Bill C-36 and for the agencies has well ?
Law enforcement will be well equipped to make some arrest and intimidate unexperienced Johns and escort owners,bookers,drivers !
But lots can still happen before !
Lets hope government will change there minds ,either willingly or by force !
Its the result that counts !!!
Good luck to all
BookerL
Hi all
Even if what your saying is true!
The Police forces does need to obtain a warrant to investigate !
This is not a Police Drama and we are not in LaLa land !!!!
Warrant are required so proof obtained will be admissible in court ,if the Police do not present it court, but uses it, as leverage to make someone admit the crime the theory does not hold!
Further more anyone can enter on merb or any other website escort related even if servers are offshore and obtain information that will eventually lead to arrest !
Addresses of incalls are provided freely and phone numbers,website links of agencies that are not offshore, so it becomes easy to backtrack for the police .Without warrants
Its not what you do that counts ,its what the Police thinks you do and the energy they will put to crack down the agencies that is important !
A trained investigator investigator knows his way !
They do poses a interview Manuel that permits them to apply proper techniques of interrogations and also uses accomplished interviewer ?
If you have never been place in that chair?The interrogated one ,I wish for all, it never happens ?
The sites that are offshore are protected against any warrants issued by a Canadian Courts! So you can't force the administrators or board members to supply legally obtain infos ,
But I would prefer to use the term, unauthorized infos because the police goes after the week links ,or people willing to talk freely to them !!
To obtain good and valid leads !!!
The reprehensible act of purchasing sex will be committed here not offshore ?
So if there is not any amendments that changes wording and the purchase remains as it is in Bill C-36 and for the agencies has well ?
Law enforcement will be well equipped to make some arrest and intimidate unexperienced Johns and escort owners,bookers,drivers !
But lots can still happen before !
Lets hope government will change there minds ,either willingly or by force !
Its the result that counts !!!
Good luck to all
BookerL
I mostly agree with this ,the only part witch is tricky is
Should add or a Canadian ally !
I saw first hand cases where they wasn't any
and it was circumvented by a ally witch had reciprocity ?
Does Canada have allies ?
Best of luck
Regards to all
Hi again
Are you familiar with Inter-Pole and international arrest warrants ?
Are you aware how extradition laws work ?Not only in the books ,but true life stress of being extradited ?
Do you know whats the authority of the Judge that decides to extradite ?
Many factors are to be considered they is no easy cases each one is different!
To refer to the law is simple, to understand the ramifications is a totally different ball game !
Best of luck
BookerL
Joy Smith, victimizing mother hen of the conservative party, says that in the 14 years of studying prostitution in Canada, she has never met a sex worker who wasn't controlled and oppressed.
http://www.cbc.ca/player/News/Politics/Power+&+Politics/ID/2472668964/
http://www.cbc.ca/player/News/Politics/Power+&+Politics/ID/2472668964/
We're talking about the legalities of taking down a website hosted in another country - not about issuing worldwide arrest warrants for criminals who are trying to evade Canadian Justice. So not sure what is your point here
Anyhow...moving on.
My point is very simple to vigilant about what we do !
Yours non nonchalant
Further more I had made my point clear in my post title thread The Police forces does need to obtain a warrant to investigate
https://merb.cc/vbulletin/showthrea...-adopted-Nordic-Model-Prostitution-Law/page21
The crimes committed in Canada not the publicity offshore are subject to Canadian Law enforcement ,
That was the point !!
When you choose to argue or debate read the full context and then rebutt if necessary,pick and choose and removing from context will not clarify the situation for readers !
Best Regards
BookerL
Joy Smith is right you know. They're all oppressed by the government!
The only direct question Joy asked to a pro-decrim was to the woman from Maggies of Toronto and she asked her if she was being paid for her work at Maggies. I just can't stand to hear that woman. However, I rather like Françoise Boivin.
Concerning ads on servers abroad, legality is one thing and reality is another. They're not going to waste that kind of effort just to take down some harmless ads. I don't think they will even bother with the ones here, unless they are especially problematic or are involved with serious crimes.
The only direct question Joy asked to a pro-decrim was to the woman from Maggies of Toronto and she asked her if she was being paid for her work at Maggies. I just can't stand to hear that woman. However, I rather like Françoise Boivin.
Concerning ads on servers abroad, legality is one thing and reality is another. They're not going to waste that kind of effort just to take down some harmless ads. I don't think they will even bother with the ones here, unless they are especially problematic or are involved with serious crimes.
So just to understand ,all of the government working on a bill of law with no intentions to have it enforced ?Hummmm?
Everything is possible but what is more likely to happen?
There was always reasons for criminal law changes before, but in this one because it concerns Us its different ?
You can be right but where are the highest probabilities ??
As for the abroad, well it made it very complicated and costly !It makes it not likely to happen!!!!
Regards
BookerL
I said I agreed with you !!!
But since you read ,I did not repeat it !
Was informative with the situation here ,not abroad !!!
If the new law passes what are the ramifications possible here ?
That was the point !!!
Regards all
BookerL
As you pointed out, she met a number of active sex workers who defended their profession during the hearings and it was recorded on national television. To say she never met any the very same day she met some is... just mind-boggling.
Is there historical precedent for rushing such an ill-defined and unconstitutional bill so quickly in a summer lull uniquely for political gain?
When ex Prime Minister Pierre Elliot Trudeau Made possible the Canadian Charter of and Freedom in 1982 was he aware at that moment that based on the principal of that Charter ,the Supreme Court of Canada would void certain parts of the criminal code regarding prostitution ?
Law evolves as interpretation of the laws, by the courts .
After a law is in place who can predict how it will be interpreted five or ten years later ?
To provide a law that has more teeth to it ,only makes it more dangerous for hobbyist and other participant !
What ever actual Police chief say now,they can be replace by more accommodating ones ,the application of the criminal code is Provincial the security Minister of each Province will have there saying after the new law is past .
A interesting article from a B.C. newspaper http://www.abbotsfordtoday.ca/abolishing-prostitution-right-peter-right/,
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/0...tion-bill-conservatives-mackay_n_5567146.html
Rick Hanson, Calgary's police chief, also called for a national strategy in which Ottawa, the provinces, municipalities and social agencies would work towards abolishing prostitution.
Regards all
BookerL
Law evolves as interpretation of the laws, by the courts .
After a law is in place who can predict how it will be interpreted five or ten years later ?
To provide a law that has more teeth to it ,only makes it more dangerous for hobbyist and other participant !
What ever actual Police chief say now,they can be replace by more accommodating ones ,the application of the criminal code is Provincial the security Minister of each Province will have there saying after the new law is past .
A interesting article from a B.C. newspaper http://www.abbotsfordtoday.ca/abolishing-prostitution-right-peter-right/,
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/0...tion-bill-conservatives-mackay_n_5567146.html
Rick Hanson, Calgary's police chief, also called for a national strategy in which Ottawa, the provinces, municipalities and social agencies would work towards abolishing prostitution.
Regards all
BookerL
The reason they are changing the law is because they are forced to. They change the words of the law and put a different spin to it, but the effect is essentially the same as before. The ban on advertisement is the only new thing. However, advertisement is impossible to suppress on the internet and it is impossible to prove that the advertisement is for a sexual service in the legal sense.
These laws won't have any impact on actual business, but they are tools that police and prosecutors can use to charge people they want to arrest. For exemple, police defend the provision that still criminalizes street walkers in public, not because they want to arrest them, but because it gives them leverage on those people to get evidence against their pimps.
I'm a US resident who occasionally visits Montreal so I will defer to you on Interpretation and application of Canadian law, but I've got to say this is one of the harshest and restrictive prostitution bills I have seen. And common sense dictates that law enforcement will come out of the gate targeting low hanging fruit, and sadly I think that means escort agencies. Chances are alas needs one instance or violation recorded to shut them down.
I'm just in utter shock by this bill and I can assure you it will have a serious impact on what I've grown to love about the Montreal escort scene. Count on LE to make some examples of men and agencies early on and use the media as a tool.
What shocks me about this bill is that no one is discussing the tax revenue impact in parliament. As I've said we have some amazing escort agencies, brothels and Indys in the NYC/NJ area that are left alone because the government enjoys the tax benefit. Yes, women like Kathleen Rice, DA on Long Island, will conduct a sting now and then to further her political ambitions, and our FBI will close down an agency that launders money from middle eastern countries, and some jackass police chief will target a backpage ad occasionally, but escort life here is nothing compared to the restrictions in this bill. We take freedom of speech and assembly a bit more seriously than these crazies you got in the Canadian government.
I'm so disappointed because I love Canada and especially Montreal and always assumed on my visits there your country was so above this crap. Keep the faith. Hope I'm wrong about enforcement
I'm just in utter shock by this bill and I can assure you it will have a serious impact on what I've grown to love about the Montreal escort scene. Count on LE to make some examples of men and agencies early on and use the media as a tool.
What shocks me about this bill is that no one is discussing the tax revenue impact in parliament. As I've said we have some amazing escort agencies, brothels and Indys in the NYC/NJ area that are left alone because the government enjoys the tax benefit. Yes, women like Kathleen Rice, DA on Long Island, will conduct a sting now and then to further her political ambitions, and our FBI will close down an agency that launders money from middle eastern countries, and some jackass police chief will target a backpage ad occasionally, but escort life here is nothing compared to the restrictions in this bill. We take freedom of speech and assembly a bit more seriously than these crazies you got in the Canadian government.
I'm so disappointed because I love Canada and especially Montreal and always assumed on my visits there your country was so above this crap. Keep the faith. Hope I'm wrong about enforcement
Bobinnyc
1 About tax revenues: there are ways to increase tax revenue of prostitution, but they cost more to implement then what they earn. Nowhere does this industry generate significant tax revenue, even for cities, even Amsterdam. But then every 100$ count for cities you could say.
2 You just cannot expect significant changes in large cities. There is no new money for LE. They will not divert resources from other activities to start going after johns. Allocation of resources of police forces are very much constrained. But then, of course, some police chiefs can do that. My impression, however, is that those we saw at the Justice Committee this week are just expressing their personal convictions or political orientations. Does the York police department in Ontario really spend more on prostitution law enforcement? I don't know the answer but I doubt it.
1 About tax revenues: there are ways to increase tax revenue of prostitution, but they cost more to implement then what they earn. Nowhere does this industry generate significant tax revenue, even for cities, even Amsterdam. But then every 100$ count for cities you could say.
2 You just cannot expect significant changes in large cities. There is no new money for LE. They will not divert resources from other activities to start going after johns. Allocation of resources of police forces are very much constrained. But then, of course, some police chiefs can do that. My impression, however, is that those we saw at the Justice Committee this week are just expressing their personal convictions or political orientations. Does the York police department in Ontario really spend more on prostitution law enforcement? I don't know the answer but I doubt it.
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