Lets hear it for the OLF

[Esquimo]

Le fait francais au Canada est un douleureux débat. Tout en respectant ton opinion Matt je pense que tu fais fausse route.

Ce qui est beau au Québec c'est que la culture des autres ajoute à la notre. regarde le niveau de l'immigration à Montréal et nous allons y voir des excellents example d'intégration.

Bien sur, il y a un point en commun qui est normal, parler la langue du pays d'acceuil ou encore la langue de la majorité de la région dans laquelle les gens ont décidé de s'y installer. Ce qui fait du Québec une province tolérante et acceuillante.

L'OLF, immigration québec font des efforts raisonnable pour integrer les gens à la culture de la province. Ce qui est tres louable.

Protéger sa langue est importante.

Il n'a pas d'histoire de carcan dans l'idéologie, la preuve le NON a passé 2 fois. Bien des québécois fédéraliste francophone, anglophone et allophone sont fier et heureux d'habiter la province du Québec du en grande partie par sa grande ouverture d'esprit.

Ouverture d'esprit que certain anglophone de l'ouest du Canada n'ont pas. Je peux les comprendre, ils n'ont pas besoin de parler le francais et je comprend son dessaroi du matin quand ils mangent leur corn flakes et ils ont le coté francais sous les yeux.

Qui est le plus triste, je pense que c'est celui qui est uniligue, francophone comme anglophone. Car, parler une autre langue c'est aussi acquérir en partie sa culture. Le rêve de Trudeau est-il une utopie ? qui sait.

 

[metoo4]

EB:
I totally agree with the need to speak english. My mother tongue is french and I've learn functionnal english when I was 17-18yo. Today, both my french and english are very good, written or spoken. Some of my coworkers in other parts of Canada were even surprised to know my mother tongue wasn't english.
Language is a necessity. The more language you can use, the more you can expand your horizon. But in Québec, we speak french and this is the way it must stay.

Eastender:
but you DO get the option to be served in english by pressing a key. You are even noticed about this in english! What do you expect? Be served in english first? No way!!

MaT:
What's important here is you both understood each other. You got your soup at the end, didn't you?
Why did you speak to her in english if you speak excellent french? When I'm in Ontario, I'll usually say "bonjour" and then keep going in english. This way, if the person want to switchc to french, she's aware I I speak french and she can do so. If she keep going in english, I don't take offence and I continue in english. In Ontario, the main language is english so, I go with the flow. Why can't you do the same in Québec? I think your attitude is arrogant. Why would somebody have to speak english to you in Québec? If they do speak back in english willingly, fine. If not, they don't have to, no matter if it's because they don't want to of if they can't.
How many english-speaking peoples understand perfect french but won't speak it because they're shy? Maybe the drive-tru window lady felt the same with english?
You might be right, the best thing you can do is leave Québec. In fact, that would be probably best for the rest of Québec too.

I consider myself a moderate when it comes to language. I work across Canada for an American company. But when I see peoples talking about their rights to be served in english in Québec without any condition, that's where I put a stop. Respect goes both way. When I go to Germany, I can't read most of the highway sign either but I don't go around complaining they are not in french: I learn! Because somebody speak english, it doesn't mean everybody else should. When you're in Québec, expect to use french and respect this. I have nothing against somebody who try. Somebody who try and make mistake look more intelligent to me than somebody who don't give a damn and won't even make an effort. I've seen American coming here and, after 1 week, they could say and understan the basic "bonjour. bonsoir, comment ça va" and could even order food in french. Guess what? They were proud of it! And I was too! They didn't get assimilated, they just learned something new!

 

[Techman]

metoo4

I agree with some of what you say but Canada is a bilingual country and the last time I checked, Quebec was still part of Canada. People should be free to speak the language they choose. We have the freedom to shop where we wish. If a store in Montreal had only English signs it would not be in business very long because people would choose not to go there. But they should have the right to do business the way they choose. It's just common sense, you want to attract business not chase it away. When you force something down someone's throat sooner or later they will choke on it. Tourists come here for our uniqueness, our joie de vivre. Do you think anyone wants that to change? Of course not. But do not claim that this is a tolerant society. It tolerates only those who are willing to give up their own identity to assimilate themselves into the "French fact" of Quebec. It does not tolerate those who wish to retain their own identity and language.

 

[eastender]

Service in English

metoo4
Basically once an option is offered and accepted then it should be
in effect.Otherwise no point to the offer.

In the USA where Spanish is a second language and the voice mail offers
the Spanish option,once Spanish is chosen then the message or the
response is strictly in Spanish.This is also true in various European countries
that are multi-lingual(insert the second or third language).In Quebec once the English option is chosen,the majority of the time the message or response continues in French.So why offer something that will not be acted on?Why waste money and time?

 

[CaptainPicard]

Bravo!

EB:
I totally agree with the need to speak english. My mother tongue is french and I've learn functionnal english when I was 17-18yo. Today, both my french and english are very good, written or spoken. Some of my coworkers in other parts of Canada were even surprised to know my mother tongue wasn't english.
Language is a necessity. The more language you can use, the more you can expand your horizon. But in Québec, we speak french and this is the way it must stay.

Eastender:
but you DO get the option to be served in english by pressing a key. You are even noticed about this in english! What do you expect? Be served in english first? No way!!

MaT:
What's important here is you both understood each other. You got your soup at the end, didn't you?
Why did you speak to her in english if you speak excellent french? When I'm in Ontario, I'll usually say "bonjour" and then keep going in english. This way, if the person want to switchc to french, she's aware I I speak french and she can do so. If she keep going in english, I don't take offence and I continue in english. In Ontario, the main language is english so, I go with the flow. Why can't you do the same in Québec? I think your attitude is arrogant. Why would somebody have to speak english to you in Québec? If they do speak back in english willingly, fine. If not, they don't have to, no matter if it's because they don't want to of if they can't.
How many english-speaking peoples understand perfect french but won't speak it because they're shy? Maybe the drive-tru window lady felt the same with english?
You might be right, the best thing you can do is leave Québec. In fact, that would be probably best for the rest of Québec too.

I consider myself a moderate when it comes to language. I work across Canada for an American company. But when I see peoples talking about their rights to be served in english in Québec without any condition, that's where I put a stop. Respect goes both way. When I go to Germany, I can't read most of the highway sign either but I don't go around complaining they are not in french: I learn! Because somebody speak english, it doesn't mean everybody else should. When you're in Québec, expect to use french and respect this. I have nothing against somebody who try. Somebody who try and make mistake look more intelligent to me than somebody who don't give a damn and won't even make an effort. I've seen American coming here and, after 1 week, they could say and understan the basic "bonjour. bonsoir, comment ça va" and could even order food in french. Guess what? They were proud of it! And I was too! They didn't get assimilated, they just learned something new!

Je suis d'accord à 100% avec toi.
I totally agree with this statement.
Le Capitaine!

 

[ManAboutTown]

metoo, actually, no... I didn't get soup, I left. The girl has a computer in front of her, she clicks one button and it reads the names of the soups off in english. I don't expect her to be a scholar, but I would expect at least either (a) a passable attempt, or (b) "sorry, I cannot speak english". Ignorantly and arrogantly answering in french without any comment when the client has specifically addressed you in english is just poor service to the max.

I asked a complicated question. It was clear she understood. It was clear that even if I set her on fire, I wasn't going to get an english answer. No matter how much the french language need protection, I shouldn't be treated like a stranger in my own country.

I speak french perfectly well (more than enough to tell politicians, functionaires, and other lowlifes exactly what to do, where to go, and what part they should kiss). I don't like being forced to do anything. I don't tolerate rude service.

I have travelled the world. No matter where I have gone (china, japan, thailand, south america, europe) people in service jobs mostly can handle an english client. If I go out into the far countryside far from the big cities, I am not shocked to get semi-blank stares when I speak english. But in most major cities of the world, someone will speak english, broken, whatever... but they will try to serve the customer in a way that makes them happy. When they try, I am more than willing to try every word of the local language I know to help out.

I didn't go to rural quebec for this. I went to a TH on the west island.

I dislike the idea that one group of people have more rights, more priviledge, and so on.

I also dislike that an immigrant to Canada is denied english schooling. Did you know that the Quebec government pays people to go to school to learn french, but pays them nothing to learn english?

Last time I looked, I was still in Canada.

MATt

 

[Techman]

Why Why Why..so much debate on language..forget about politics and the OLF..just look at the French language for its richness, history, and the fact that it is a very important language in this world. I was brought up English speaking...but I still treat both languages equally..also culturally, I can identify more with the French than the English..I can understand why the French want to protect their language and culture (and they should)..really, nobody will be sent to jail because of the OLF..You all should try to speak some French..it is something that would be very much appreciated by the French..they are for the most part ,very much kind hearted individuals..its a culture thing..

All this negativism Anglos speak of in Québec ?..its something I really don't see.

SA

The problem is that here in Quebec language and politics are too closely related. The PQ uses the imaginary threat to the French language to get support and votes. The best way to get that support is to prey on the peoples insecurities which have been for the most part created by the politicians themselves. As far as the negativism goes, I personally have witnessed bus drivers and metro attendants refuse to speak to people in English when asked for information or directions. I feel that those who deal with the public should be bilingual and be able and willing to speak in both languages.

MaTt as far as education goes you might find it interesting to know that students from the Francophonie group of countries, which are French speaking countries, pay the same school tuition as Quebec students whereas students from other Canadian provinces are paying foreign student rates. I believe that our students would enjoy the same benefits if they were to study in other Francophonie countries, if any actually choose to do so I have no idea.

 

[hobby11]

its nice

its nice to be able to speak to the best sps in french
dont u think???

 

[Techman]

hobby11

I totally agree with you. But I'll tell you even though I am perfectly bilingual I find nothing sexier than a beautiful woman speaking English with a sexy French accent. It's an amazing thing that an English accent while speaking French, Italian, Spanish or any language for that matter seems so crude in comparison. But a French or Spanish or eastern european woman speaking English with an accent can be so incredibly sexy. I naturally assume that women feel the same way about foreign language men

 

[CaptainPicard]

In Canada!!!

...Last time I looked, I was still in Canada....
MATt

This is precisely why many of us want to leave...
Captain out!

 

[metoo4]

...In Quebec once the English option is chosen,the majority of the time the message or response continues in French.So why offer something that will not be acted on?Why waste money and time?

Give me some numbers! I need to check this! Lots of time, I was asked by an answering machine to press "1 for english" or "2 pour le français" (Yes, in this order, in Québec, english first!) and hit 1 by mistake and had no choice but hangup and redial to get some french.

 

[ManAboutTown]

metoo, try calling any quebec governemnt office. First off, english is usually a "press9", and no matter WHAT button you press, you get someone answering the phone in french - and 99% of them don't speak a word of english, get irate is you keep trying to speak english. I have even had them hang up or transfer me to never never land to avoid the issue.

City of Montreal is the same thing. Call up and ask about your property taxes, there is not a single person anywhere near a phone that speaks english. No matter what button you press, you get "monique blahblah a l'appareil.".

Captain, honestly, if the truly french part of quebec wanted to leave, there wouldn't be an issue. But you can't drag the rest of us along just like that. Perhaps the Cote Nord and a few other places should get together and seperate from Quebec, and then from Canada? That might actually work. No, wait, Quebec can't be seperated that way... but Canada can!

MATt

 

[metoo4]

metoo, actually, no... I didn't get soup, I left. The girl has a computer in front of her, she clicks one button and it reads the names of the soups off in english. I don't expect her to be a scholar, but I would expect at least either (a) a passable attempt, or (b) "sorry, I cannot speak english". Ignorantly and arrogantly answering in french without any comment when the client has specifically addressed you in english is just poor service to the max.
...
...I don't like being forced to do anything. I don't tolerate rude service...

I have travelled the world. No matter where I have gone (china, japan, thailand, south america, europe) people in service jobs mostly can handle an english client...
...But in most major cities of the world, someone will speak english, broken, whatever...

And you don't think this is rude? No matter where you go around the world, you expect to be served in english! Come on! You only speak english, it doesn't put you on top of the world!

I dislike the idea that one group of people have more rights, more priviledge, and so on.

Any you, demanding to get service in english, you're not demanding more rights than other have? And if that TH girl didn't want to speak english, that was her right! Who do you think you are to tell her what language she should use?

I also dislike that an immigrant to Canada is denied english schooling. Did you know that the Quebec government pays people to go to school to learn french, but pays them nothing to learn english?

These immigrant KNOW they're moving to Québec, to a french community. If they want to live in English, there's 10 provinces and 1 territory left (don't forget Nunavuck) Nobody is forcing them to move here.

Last time I looked, I was still in Canada.

But it's radical like you who will break Canada apart, both sides.

You should definetly move. Why don't you join the US RedNecks of the south states? I'm certain they would agree with you and share your most intimate racial ideas. Of course, you're not racist, you like French peoples, as long as you can show your superiority by speaking english whenever and wherever you like, you love French peoples, right? Why would you respect french-speaking peoples of Québec? After all, they were conquered by the British and are now a minority in North America! French-speaking peoples should adapt, not you! After all, you're a member of the mighty North American english majority!

You moving out of Canada would be for the greater good of all Canadians, french or english.

Bravo M. Charled DeGaulle: Vive le Québec libre!
Thanks to you guys who just don't understand what respect mean, it will happen one day, sadly...

 

[EagerBeaver]

You should definetly move. Why don't you join the US RedNecks of the south states? I'm certain they would agree with you and share your most intimate racial ideas.

Captain Renault,

Would you care to comment on this statement?

 

[steak]

Roc

My question is simple: can we get french services in the rest of Canada? If I move to Medecine Hat, would I be able to get french service from city officials? Or from governement offices? Or post offices? After all, both languages are officials in Canada. I think it as far easier for an english person to speak english in Quebec than for a french to speak french in the rest of Canada. I totally understand making an effort to speak english elsewhere but I do not understand what little effort is made to speak french here. I work with a girl who lives in Montreal for 4 years and couldn't speak a word in french. I guess she was able to get service when she needed otherwise she would have complained. Try to live for years in Alberta now without speaking a word in english... What I am saying is if you come to Quebec speaking french is important because we are a french society. I understand you might not need it often but the knowledge is something more valuable than being close minded. I speak english and french quite well enough and I learned a little spanish and german. The more you know, the better.

 

[cargo]

Why Why Why..so much debate on language..forget about politics and the OLF..just look at the French language for its richness, history, and the fact that it is a very important language in this world. I was brought up English speaking...but I still treat both languages equally..also culturally, I can identify more with the French than the English..I can understand why the French want to protect their language and culture (and they should)..really, nobody will be sent to jail because of the OLF..You all should try to speak some French..it is something that would be very much appreciated by the French..they are for the most part ,very much kind hearted individuals..its a culture thing..

All this negativism Anglos speak of in Québec ?..its something I really don't see.

SA

Thank you for your point of view SA. It's refreshing to see anglo-quebecer that are up to day. Techman is the typical representant of a old way franco-anglo battle. He like french but don't want to hear it. He is clearly feed by angryness but with a face of a good guy.

The situation of the language debate has change in Quebec. I use to meet lot of anglophone in Montreal that can live perfectly with the actual situation and are not offended to hear some french. You can live in english very well in Montreal and mostly in Quebec in general. There is a lot of student from abroad that never use a single word in french all the time they study. Don't tell me not, i have very close friends among them.

Go to rural China or rural Spain or rural whatever, i am not sure you will be able to speak english. Go to rural US, the dialect sometime is not understandable.

The clear fact is Quebec is a french nation swimming in a anglo world, and want to stay a place where you can live in french. That's its difference and its proudness and what make it his special character, like it or not. It is the choice of the majority, but clearly not the Techman's one. For that, in our particular situation and as past history has show us, Quebec need to protect the language by some law. Why, because if Quebec don't it will probably turn like Manitoba who was fully bilingual (if not more french) when they enter in Canada and now, they only have a folkloric french history. Quebec can not rely on Canada to protect language, simply because they don't know our reality: it's ok if they don't or don't care, i understand that they live other reality as they sometime live some thousand kilometers away from here. In return, Quebecer doesn't understand the reality of other province in Canada and it's ok too. As Quebec is very different culturally from the other province, the best for themself is to be rule by themself for a better understanding of their situation: inside Canada or not.

As a minority, the quebecer are touchy on this subject. As they lived like a second class citizen for some years, they don't want to live the same thing from the past. It's true in the sixty and seventy, the frustration from getting out of the "darkness" get some exageration from a minority (FLQ, public demonstration), but now the balance seem to be more in the middle. As a minority in the minority, the anglo-quebecer, show some exageration on their side specially through some Montreal media who seems living from the past angryness. But a lot of anglo-quebecer are not fooled by this now. The tolerance is predominant, but they will always be some people who always search problem... in both side, because stupidity does not belong to a race, color, language or religion. It is a matter of fact.

 

[eastender]

Service in English

metoo4
Your request for numbers goes against basic research techniques.
If I provide the numbers then I can be accused of being selective
and picking the numbers that will support my position.Once you
challenge an assertion,it is up to you to do your own research by
going to the blue section of the Bell White pages and randomnly
picking phone numbers provided for the "Ville De Montreal"
and "Gouvernement de Quebec".

thread contributors in general.
Your concepts of freedom/government intervention/choice etc
are very unique and tend to lose the very basic concepts that
you are trying to defend or promote.

Specifically:
- the freedom to send your children to the school of your choice.
This is not a freedom - evidence what happened in the USA
when schools were desegregated.Issues of language/religion
cloud the debate but the root of the situation is jobs.Whose
jobs are saved and whose are not.
- all gouvernments interfere with and dictate culture.Canadian
Content regulations for radio/tv,foreign ownership criteria in
the media in Canada and the USA,export of antiques and works of
art in most countries.
- very simply the various gouvernments (Federal/Provincial/Municipal)
in Canada have diverted the criteria and debate about services
from quality to one of linguistic choice - specifically English or
French.The vast majority of people do not have the ability to
determine quality in a specific domaine.Who on this board can
determine if their children are getting the best education possible,
if their family and friends are getting the best medical services
possible,if they are getting the greatest value for their tax dollar?
But it is very simple to determine if you are getting the service -
regardless of quality, in the language of your choice French or English.

 

[CaptainPicard]

a few more facts

Mike you are well informed I see. If all citizens were as you are, maybe we could all be on the road to linguistic peace, finally.
I would just add a few more facts:

The language (written and spoken) of the workplace: companies wuth 50+ employees are obliged to put in place a francisation plan (art 139 ++), this applies to the towns like Richmond (art 20 ++); in companies with under 50 employees, an employee can lodge a complaint under art 41, and the OQLF will intervene.

The commerecial sign law: (art 58, 68, amended by bill 86), provides for bilingualism as long as french wording is as complete in information and predominent in lettering or space alloted. Anyone who remembers Ste-Cath. street prior to '77 should be able to understand this obligation.

A recent report, based on the last census, indicates that immigrants still integrate the workplace in english at a rate over 55%. Although, this situation has improved dramatically since bill 101; is'nt it odd in a jurisdiction majoritally french at over 81%, new citizens still integrate an english workplace at this level.
So don't mention to me that french in North America is in no need of protection.

Lastly, the french outside Québec are still assimilated to english at alarming rates. I never hear the english community in québec complaining of assimilation.
Captain out!

 

[Techman]

Couple of clarifications

Cargo: I'm not an anglophone, I'm French. I just happen to hate state sponsored discrimination.

Miko: I am very much aware of the minor concessions in Bill 101. The language exemption started out at 50 employees but has been cut down over the years. I don't know the exact number today, it's around 25 I think. But companies that are part of a larger corporation are considered part of the whole and do not have that exemption. As far as the Supreme Court decisions regarding the bill, the explanation for them is simple. Like in other matters, they will not do anything that upsets Quebec. This is the attitude that has led to the sponsorship scandle that we now enjoy.

As far as immigration goes, people come to Quebec because we accept more immigrants than other provinces. What you do not mention is the large percentage of immigrants who leave Quebec once they get landed immigrant status. This is especially true of Chinese immigrants who tend to move to the Toronto area or Vancouver as soon as they can.

Immigration is also one of the reasons for the decline of the French language in Montreal as most immigrants tend to move here. The main reason for the decline is the extremely low birth rate in Quebec. We just are not having enough babies.

I have said it before and I will say it again here: I have no problem with protecting the language but do not do it by trying to eradicate others, especially English. All people employed, in Montreal, in a position where they deal with the public should be bilingual and ready and willing to speak both languages. I ams sure there are enough people on unemployment insurance or welfare who would jump at the chance to take some of these jobs if they were given the chance.

And finally I do believe that if you choose to live in Quebec you should learn at least enough French to be able to get along. But some people either have a problem learning another language or will not be here long enough, such as contract employees, to do so. And others simply choose not to as is their right. And we have no business forcing them to do so.

 

[ManAboutTown]

metoo: I don't travel the world expecting to be served in english. That wasn't the point, not in the slightest. I am not some arrogant fool that think the world revolves around my nose. I am not an ignorant american tourist (the worst in the world, based on what I have seen travelling the world). That isn't the point in the slightest, but thanks for trying to make me look like a fool.

Any you, demanding to get service in english, you're not demanding more rights than other have? And if that TH girl didn't want to speak english, that was her right! Who do you think you are to tell her what language she should use?

The point is simple: COMMON COURTESY has taught people all over the world to at least try to be able to deal with the customer, and when you cannot understand or communicate with the customer, apologize or otherwise try whatever tools are at your fingertips to make things go.

Had the girl tried to speak english and done very poorly, I likely would have switched to french without a blink. It is COMMON COURTESY to make an effort, and that courtesy falls on the seller because THE CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT.

I don't want to take away anyone's rights. Her issue isn't about rights, it was aboutbeing specifically rude to a client and using a language law as a cover for being a very ignorant and rude person.

These immigrant KNOW they're moving to Québec, to a french community. If they want to live in English, there's 10 provinces and 1 territory left (don't forget Nunavuck) Nobody is forcing them to move here.

The rules for immigration and the various programs that are offered, promoted, etc are complex at the best of times. Further, Quebec uses artificially low school fees and subventions / bursaries / loans / etc to encourage people to settle here. There is a whole extra layer of government (Immigration Quebec) that was designed to do exactly that. They have a choice, but once they make it (often without understanding the whole situation) they are then sort of trapped in the system: They can't get into any language school to learn english, they get PAID to learn french, and after it is all done, they can't go anywhere else in Canada.

If you have never been in their shoes, if you have never seen how the system works, you will never understand what is really going on. Probably 75% of my friend are immigrants from all over the world, and many of them came here for nothing but cheap school and huge government grants.

Why don't you join the US RedNecks of the south states? I'm certain they would agree with you and share your most intimate racial ideas.

You know what? You truly piss me off. If you stand up for your rights and you language, you are a noble man. If I stand up for my rights and my language, I am a red neck southern hick, probably a member of the KKK? You sir are the racist, you sir are the ignorant one.

Your entire post is a blatant and massively rude attempt to paint all english people as oppressive racists redneck fools. You suggest that we have no rights, we should have no rights, and we should all just go away.

I am not going to sit in the back of the bus.

I am not going to tolerate racists fools.

I am not your boy.

The whole point of the discussion? The same ignornant racist "English speaking fat lady at eatons" has come back on the other side. You haven't figured it out, have you? The situation has switched sides and it is just as stupid over here as it was for your father before you.

Your overwhelming blissful ignornace now that you are on the "right" side only makes your future fall harder.

Enjoy it.

MATt

out of here.