New York Possible Decriminilization of Prostitution

[CLOUD 500]

We seem to be living in an era of right-wing conservatism where we are seeing more and more social behavior and morality laws. The government seems to want to impose traditional family values and to protect us from ourselves. However I strongly disagree with that. I am against any kind of social behavior laws. I expect social liberty. I think the government should stay out of it. Drugs should be legalized also. If people want to use it that is their right even if it is bad for them. Unless there is no one else being harmed in other words victimless crimes should government should stay out of it. In the US, the bible has a very strong hold on the country. Many laws are based from protestant. Some states have illegal adultery, illegal anal sex, illegal masturbation to name a few things. I will never understand the US extreme push to ban prostitution. No one is being harmed. Two consenting adults fulling each others needs however guns are legal even though there have been so much mass shootings the US seems to want to make guns available but boy you book an escort and you committed the biggest sin. Another example of right-wing conservative stupidity is Alabama's extreme push to make abortion illegal. Weird.

To this point the point I am posting this that I read that New York state could be the first state to fully decriminalize prostitution. Finally a progressive thinking state with a common sense thinking. This would be a good move. Will the right-wing conservatives and the evangelicals ever let this go through?

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/11/nyregion/prostitution-legal-ny.html

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/new-york-prostitution-legalization-sex-work-decriminalization/

 

[ShyMan]

I don't think it's an impossibility but an improbability in any state in the good old USA.

Who would have though 10 years ago that weed would been legalized in so many states in the USA (I don't want to say America because technically Canada is part of North America, and Columbia is part of the Americas) and still more to come. The "red" states would legalize pot too if farming cannabis, if feasible, could replace the incomes from soybeans.

Legalizing sex work could be done too, it does not take a group of rocket scientists, actually maybe it would be best to let a group of rocket scientists to do so. When it comes down to it, even the most conservative and moralistic politician, rabbi, priest, and business men (and sometimes women and real estate tycoons) utilize the services of sex workers. Liberals too. God knows, the State of New York should legalize sex work, particularly because most in the State Capital part take in such pleasures.

Many Americans (in the USA) love most things made in Germany, especially cars and machinery, so why not import Germany's system of legalized sex work -- maybe USA politicians (and the police chiefs they appoint and the FBI chief along with the CIA chiefs are appointed by the Executive too) can do a few field experiments in Germany, where there are groups that demonstrate against legal brothels there. Ironic, sex is such an essential part of life -- heck, if humans didn't have sex, the human race would have gone extinct long ago. Having sex is as essential to healthy living as eating a balanced diet daily and exercising regularly. We don't see any group protesting corn producers or the sale of corn and corn based products in the USA; heck, even PETA does not protect against vegetable producers and sellers even though vegetables have feelings too. (Okay, I'm not 100% sure about vegetables, but scientists have shown through credible and peer-reviewed verified research that trees communicate with one another and have feelings too.)

There's a glimmer of hope that since pot has been legalized in so many states, albeit mostly "blue" ones, one day in the long long future, sex work would be legalized in more states (other than in a tiny area in Nevada) in the good old USA, which is way younger than Germany.

 

[MattMiller]

Patron,
- I read that Madalena and who you call her Sugar Daddy are actually in love, it's not sex for money. Am I too gullible or are you too cynical (or playing favorites with Sunshine and Cinnamon) ?
- What about New Zealand? Sex work was decriminalized there, what?, a decade ago.

 

[Reuben]

Politicians talking, when one prefers up the other prefers down. Trudeau wants to ban plastic straws to save the whales, or is it just a was to appease the people and get votes? With all this talk about the Nordic model and the Me Too movement does decriminalizing prostitution have a chance?
[h=1][/h]

 

[ShyMan]

Shyman, I would argue that the German model, at least the FKK portion, would be the worst imaginable model that the U.S. could adopt.

I don't disagree as regards the FKK, Patron. There's a good documentary about Europe's sex trade on Amazon Prime.

I don't think there is any perfect system yet. Perhaps a hybrid system that borrows from the best from each system would yield the best possible solution, but the USA will never ever get to that point, especially given the fact that folks in Washington can't even patch together a federal budget, even though Uncle Sam continues to print greenbacks (perhaps until one day, a default is finally declared and bankruptcy is forced upon Washington).

Currently, the high-end escorts (except the agency that catered to Eliot Spitzer) get a blind-eye by LE, while lower rung street walkers and the impoverished SP's in MP's and other venues get no protection of the basic human rights law. This debate and reality will rage on with no real concrete solution that would protect both the SP's and the Johns (and Janes).

 

[MattMiller]

The new puritans. The Economist, June 15th 2019
The idea of criminalising prostitutes’ clients is spreading
Prostitutes hate it
https://www.economist.com/europe/20...riminalising-prostitutes-clients-is-spreading

"... Over the past two decades the Swedish model has been taken up by nearby Norway and Iceland, and beyond, by Canada, France, Ireland, Israel and Northern Ireland. In 2014 the European Parliament urged EU members to adopt it. Spanish lawmakers are in the process of doing so. In America politicians in Maine and Massachusetts are calling for a similar approach. On July 3rd lawmakers in the Netherlands, where prostitution is legal and highly visible, are to start discussing such a law, as well as whether to ban pimps. As in Sweden, the crusade is cheered on by feminists and Christians with stern moral views. Exxpose, a Dutch organisation led by evangelical students, has gathered 40,000 signatures on a petition to criminalise the buying of sex. Parliament is unlikely to agree, in such a liberal country, but the campaign is spreading and there will doubtless be more attempts ..."

 

[CLOUD 500]

So law proposers, lawmakers, and celebrities just go around pretending that economics, poverty, income/wealth disparity, lack of capital, and drug addiction conveniently do not exist. Economics is difficult, so most people do not want to discuss it.

You are talking about the right-wing conservatives here. The US is still a largely conservative society that supports a hierarchy. The cons love social stratification. They love neoliberalism but like to enforce social behavior rules. The cons also want free speech as in being free to spread bigotry and hate but want social behavior rules. Here is an interesting news I read behold -> https://www.npr.org/2019/11/21/7817...-lewdness-after-being-topless-in-her-own-home

Only thing I can say when it comes to prostitution the US will never change maybe after some hundred of years when American society decides to move away from social conservatism and right-wing politics.

N.B.: The biggest reason prostitution exists is due to poverty. None of these girls would work as sex workers. One also has to consider the other side of the equation why do so many men have the need to purchase sexual services? This is a socioeconomic issue which cannot be solved by prohibition like the way the social conservatives want to. See all the good that did during prohibition era. The more poverty the more escorts. So maybe the cons should stop making policies that favor the rich. Neoliberalism is a great failure. If there were more income equality there will be less sex workers.

 

[CLOUD 500]

Did you not read the story?

Ashley Judd, Seth Meyers and his wife, human rights lawyer Alexi Ashe Meyers are leading the charge for the Nordic Model and for legalization with significant regulation.

They are Hollywood liberal elites with no connection to religion or social conservatives.

But this isn’t unexpected. Neither the far right, nor the “visible left” really want decriminalization.

I was talking about American society general I should have been more specific my bad but in relation to this article I never blamed feminists as much as I did the social conservatives. But see my point is either way American are prudes and will never support it. Best to move to Europe to places like Germany and Spain and Portugal.

 

[2fast2slow]

N.B.: The biggest reason prostitution exists is due to poverty. None of these girls would work as sex workers. One also has to consider the other side of the equation why do so many men have the need to purchase sexual services? This is a socioeconomic issue which cannot be solved by prohibition like the way the social conservatives want to. See all the good that did during prohibition era. The more poverty the more escorts. So maybe the cons should stop making policies that favor the rich. Neoliberalism is a great failure. If there were more income equality there will be less sex workers.

im really not sure i agree with that statement. Here in Montreal the econnomy is good, and i have met a lot of providers that come from middle class or even upper middle class families. A lot choose the profession because they can make a lot of money in a short time, and may like the attention from men, etc,...while choosing their own hours, etc, ...

 

[Stephen500]

Patron, I agree that the injection of West Coast celebrities is unhelpful. But there is a significant discussion of economic justice around the NY legislation that has actually been introduced. In fact, my New York State Senator Julia Salazar is a Democratic Socialist, and she is the prime sponsor of legislation to legalize sex work in New York. Here is a description of the legislation on the official New York State government web page, which contains none of the "celebrity" proposals: https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/bills/2019/s6419. Here is a plain language press account of the legislation https://www.nysenate.gov/newsroom/in-the-news/julia-salazar/decriminalize-sex-work-new-york. FWIW, I am a lawyer politically active here in NYC. The "victims' rights" groups have made an outcry but have not even introduced their own legislation. Senator Liz Kruger is a senior Democrat but she and her ilk are fading in influence as new progressive like Salazar come to the fore.


Salazar's rationale has nothing to do with wealthy elites, it is about allowing workers in a well-established industry to make a living safely without exploitation by police or third parties. These are serious concerns. Note that a corrupt ex-cop was recently busted for running a highly exploitative brothel operation by paying off cops on the jobs for protection: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/13/...titution-gambling.html?searchResultPosition=1 . It is this situation that results in higher-end workers in NYC area charging 3X-4X what you are paying in Montreal, lower-end workers getting harassed and arrested, and a huge portion of profits being skimmed off by police and other third parties.

Julia Salazar's election and her championing this legislation reflects greater openness since we Democrats in New York took control of our government and got rid of Republican domination. I am a big supporter of Senator Salazar although primarily because of the other aspects of her agenda. I have met with her and her staff several times, on other matters. I believe she is sincere with her framing of the purpose of the bill, not shilling for elites or wealthy sex industry forces.

This is not so say legalization is not an extremely "heavy lift"--it would take continued transformation of the legislature for several election cycles to the same extent as in 2016. But even just with the start we got in 2016, we have seen the impossible become possible in many areas of policy in a very short period of time. So I do hold out some hope and think there is a benefit to continuing to support Salazar, Ramos, and other legislators who are now supporting this bill.

 

[Stephen500]

And here is the prime sponsor of the NYS decriminalization bill, Julia Salazar, denouncing the Hollywood types moving in to "save the victims":

https://twitter.com/juliacarmel__/status/1199144598775439360

 

[Dave in Phoenix]

Having been an activist on decrim in the US for two decades sadly I doubt the NY bill has any chance of actual passage in the current climate.

About 20 years ago probably the most progressive city in the U.S. - Berkeley CA - had a voter referendum to direct the city not to enforce the California prostitution law. There was wide support until voters realized it included making legal street hookers and was overwhelmingly defeated.

In New Zealand many citizens are in an uproar over local community options since they are tired of having hookers walking residential streets, having to explain scatty clothed women to their children and condoms in their front yards.

In the early days of SWOP I had discussions with the founder (now deceased) suggesting their insistence of the right of street hooker to be a public nuisance doomed all hope of legislative reform.

I was somewhat involved with a great group in California that was well organized that met especially with newly elected California legislators try to talk about private consenting adult sexwork decrim. Reports were that many legislators were privately supportive but felt they would be voted out of office if they publically backed such a proposal.

As in Canada there is today an even stronger anti-group (no women would choose sexwork voluntary and is an abuse of women) very well funded groups collecting millions in donations. I have pulled some of their tax-exempt tax filing (Forms 990s) and see the money ( I have a CPA background). They also fund local police to do "anti-trafficking" stings which of course is targeting all sexworkers, probably 90% are private consenting adults, going after discussion boards (pre-FOSTA) etc.

In Arizona, thanks to a group led by Ms. McCain (as in wife for late Senator) led the anti charge and got AZ law passed making it a felony to assist or promote which resulted in all the local discussion/review boards shutting down. I hosted the Phoenix Private Email List with 1500 subscribers (free to escorts) and we discontinued reviews and ads and basically just became about industry information. Today there are about 350 mostly escorts but I haven't done an update in about a year.

Some of the US anti's filed friend of the Court briefs in the Ontario Bedford Superior Court case with the judge issuing one of the longest opinions in its history that was later upheld by the Canada Supreme Court C36 was, of course, the Harper conservative reaction to try and address the issues. The Superior Court judge addressed the issue of the US anti-group saying their stats like ave age 13 and all about abuse case was faulty and biased.

However, since then many anti groups are using the same flawed data and arguments for C36 and reject any decrim in Canada. The same type of arguments now in the trial in London Ont of the agency owners being charged under C36. Many lawyers believe this test case of C36 will result in the same Charter of Rights (safety of persons) issues that overturned prior Canadian law against bawdy houses (incalls). living off the avails etc. Outcall, of course, was legal under the old law. Whichever way the London case goes will probably be appealed and the constitutionality of C36 may take a decade again to be resolved eventually by the Supreme Court.

Gina in New Hampshire has worked hard especially with the University students to support NH attempt to decrim in the State legislature.

Fortunately for Canadians your Charter of Rights and Freedoms - the safety of persons part) seems much stronger than US constitutional issues.

The Erotic Service Providers Legal, Educational and Research Project brought in my view one of the best-written briefs and case challenging the California prostitution law on our Constitutional grounds. I was in frequent contact with ESPLERs founder and she even came to my home in Phoenix meeting with companions. Lost at the Calf District level and appealed to the most liberal Appeals Court - 9th Circuit and lost. Sady the legal challenge is not an option in the U.S.., only getting each state's legislature to change each state's prostitution law which sadly is very unlikely anytime soon.

 

[2fast2slow]

that's a bleak landscape.

It amazes me how pssionnate the anti's are about an issue that ultimately does not conncern them. I am a very strong beleiver in individual rights and freedoms. If I want to inject heroine in my veins, that concerns me, and me only. If a woman chooses to have an abortion, that is her decision and her decision only (within reasonable limits, like no baseless late terms). If a person wants to die (also within reasonable limits), that is their decision. I dont care if a woman voluntarily sells her body, it does not concern me. Why do the antis care so much?? there are much bigger problems in the world.

We have made so much progress in the last decades. Abortion, marijuana use, right to die...but sex work, not sure if it has gone backwards. The irony is a woman is already always choosing who she lets inside her. Simply adding financial consideration apparently changes everything. Crazy and frustrating.

 

[jalimon]

Why do the antis care so much?? there are much bigger problems in the world.

Jealousy.... Their mentality is... "If I do not get any sex you won't get any either..."

 

[Stephen500]

I don’t know which group is more frustrating.

The “anti-s” who stick their noses into everyone’s private business, or the “de-crims” who think that the street scene is just fine despite the fact that neighbors and businesses object so much that it will increase the number of “anti-s”.
.

My big worry about the current decriminalization groups is that many of them are the In Your Face, Yes Street Hookers Are Great, and How Dare You Look Horrified About My Transgendered Hooker Friend types. They aren’t going to get what they want, and they may increase the number of “anti-s” in

Good point. And can't disagree with Patron or Dave in Pheonix that the prospects of any US jurisdiction decriminalizing anytime soon are dim. But many of the current decrim proponents are coming at the issue from a socialist/labor standards/human rights angle, rather than from the (often counterproductive and designed-to-shock) radical cultural place. Laws take a long time to change, but if they are ever going to change, it will likely be delivered by the former rather than the latter approach .

 

[Bred Sob]

Law enforcement in the U.S. loves laws against commercial sex because it gives them piles of cash and property to seize.

I don't think that is the only (or even the major) reason. They like dealing with sex workers because it is much safer (and possibly much more pleasurable as you noted in the Kraft thread) than chasing after violent criminals.

 

[Dave in Phoenix]

As I often say, Police face those dangerous big breasts of sexworkers vs real criminals that have guns that go bang.

The forfeiture laws are really bad and have been some proposals to change. Your assets are guilty unless you can prove them innocent (source of asset legal and YOU have to PROVE it!) I know an escort that had $10k seized she just got from a bank to buy a car. Another Phoenix escort had to buy her home back for her $50k equity long ago from our infamous "Sheriff Joe" In both cases, the criminal case was dismissed or never charged.

At least we no longer have Sheriff Joe's posse on horseback rounding up the hookers on our Van Buren Ave like 20 years ago. The street maintenance dept got upset because of all the output from the horses. They tried to put diapers on the horses, but didn't work very well!

 

[Stephen500]

New York On the Cusp of Sex Law Overhaul as Half-Meausres Fail

A report on the NYC diversion program, which effectively decriminalizes sex work with changing any laws, in today's Times:


"Variations of the diversion program have sprung up across the country. Seattle, Atlanta and Santa Fe, N.M., have adopted similar models, and at least seven other major cities are exploring the approach.

But in New York, where the idea originated, it is facing skepticism, and it has become part of a larger debate over whether prostitution should be considered a crime in the first place.

Some point to the courts’ flaws as proof that problems with exploitation in the sex trade cannot be solved by law enforcement. Others say the courts have opened the minds of law enforcement officials to the idea of decriminalizing prostitution, while serving as an entry point for people who might otherwise get no services at all.

“Everyone can agree we don’t want people to go through the process of arrest because it’s really traumatic. But everything else is really nuanced,” said Yvonne Chen, supervising program manager at the anti-trafficking initiative at Sanctuary for Families, which works with the courts.

In New York, this debate is rooted in Queens, an enclave of immigrants that has become a hub for the sex trade. In Flushing’s illicit massage parlors, Asian immigrants in debt-bondage are forced into prostitution by sex traffickers; along Roosevelt Avenue in Jackson Heights, transgender, undocumented immigrants from Latin America come to the trade after being turned away from work in restaurants and hotels."

Link to full report: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/06/...ion-courts.html#click=https://t.co/hmcZqi5Fpk

The pathway indicated for full decriminilazation is clear and well-worn: specialized courts and diversion programs have been precursors to full decriminalization of marijuana use and other low level offesnses.

But there is obviously a huge culture war to be fought before we see de jure decriminalization of sex work in NYC. At the root of the problem is the fuzzy thinking that conflates economic coercion (New York is an expensive place to live, there aren't enough jobs and housing, people got to eat, duh) with actual physical coercion ("slavery" and "trafficking").

One phrase used in the report, "debt bondage", is interesting. Aren't mortgages, student debt, medical debt, a kind of "debt bondage"?

Ironic (but predictable) that transfers of cash to working class people through sex work is outlawed, but transfers of cash or other value via bank loans, student loans, catastrophic medical debt, are all upheld 100% by our system of property law.

 

[Fradi]

^^^
I marvel at some of these celebrities spewing out advice, like the Kardashians, Sharon Osbourne, Marie Osmond, etc...
These people have the most fucked up families in the world, full of drug addicts, multiple divorces, sex changes, suicides, morons that can’t put a simple sentence together anymore because drugs have eaten what ever brain they had left.

What is even more sad are people who listen and take advice from them.
What a fucked up world we live in.

 

[jalimon]

Its exactly the same as seing Gwyneth Paltrow, who most probably has the IQ between a green plant and a trout, selling you candle that smells like her vagina for.... 75$$$$$ !!!!! WTF! Who is stupid enough to buy that!