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Sanders or Clinton?

CaptRenault

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After Tuesday night, it looks like the real question is Clinton or Trump. I would not vote for either one.

I don't like Clinton's policies (though they are not as bad as those of Sanders). Trump is a con man and anyone who votes for him is a sucker.
 

gugu

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Feb 11, 2009
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Clinton will win for sure. Yesterday's results were not as bad as I expected for Sanders however. Too bad because Sanders has much better chances to win against Trump. I've been a huge Sanders supporter for 35 years. I like his vision on health, the criminal justice system, the political financing system and banking. I find him a bit hypocritical on the women issue and on black lives matter. He's also weaker on international issues. The next presidential election may well oppose those upset by the whole political system and the establishment. That's why I'm scared to see Clinton winning the democratic convention. Paradoxically, Trump may even draw some Sanders supporters.
 

Sky_rocket

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Jun 28, 2015
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@Patron.. Please stop conflating Bernie's supporters with the fraternity/ Sorority welfare kids you see in Harvard. Majority of university students are sincere, hard working people who come from middle class or poor background. They have taken loans to pay for their education. They sure as hell cannot afford to visit high end bars at their whim as you claim. All they want is education being made affordable. Is it that too much to ask for?
I mean you can pursue a master's degree in electrical engineering in germany for a paltry tuition fee of 1000 euros pa. Compare that with exorbitant fees charged for bachelor's degree in US/canada.

Just video on student debt - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnqVdONHDrc
 

CLOUD 500

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Jan 10, 2005
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Free college tuition and free healthcare (stuff which are pretty much the norm in most developed countries) freaks out rational voters. US having a defense budget nearly quadruple of the second largest (and about the size of next 9 countries combined) is just fine. Let's look forward to the next trillion dollar fancy gadget plane that's gonna serve as a giant white elephant in the US airforce.

So well said... This is the difference between rightist and leftist thinking. Right wing politicians serve the interests of large corporations... They do not want universal healthcare but will defend as the right for everyone to own guns and make guns available everywhere... Instead of subsidized education so that anyone including those are were not fortunate enough to be born into a rich family can make something out of themselves and be well off they rather use the money to spend on the military and have wars and lots of wars. Right wing conservative politicians are dangerous they belong in the dark ages. They are also the ones that would ban prostitution completely. They want to see everyone attend Sunday church and only can see a nude woman that is your wife and only sex with your wife.
 

dbiz2

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Jan 16, 2016
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I do believe the student debt explosion is an economic disaster.

On point. Student loan debt has reached $1.3 trillion dollars, surpassing credit card debt, and ranking behind mortgages as the #2 source of debt in the U.S. The real problem with loan repayment: low wage jobs and repayment options. Other issues surround lower state funded support to higher education institutions (referring to public institutions), student grant programs, and one I personally disfavor that isn't often mentioned, IRS tax treatment (loan forgiveness programs, ARE NOT truly not loan forgiveness. After 20-30 years, the U.S. Dept. of Ed may forgive, but IRS considers it imputed income--no different than any other creditor that writes off a "bad loan" and submits that info on a 1099C to IRS. The individual's debt is taxed as income by ole Uncle Sam and could have disastrous financial consequences).

Article by Brookings Institution on this topic: http://www.brookings.edu/research/papers/2016/01/07-student-loans-low-earnings-dynarski

A "cliff notes" version by Forbes: http://www.forbes.com/sites/maggiem...crisis-and-its-not-free-tuition/#869cf093fbb8

Interesting point: both articles state the solution is not free college tuition...

2nd interesting point: inverse relationship between student loan debt and default rates, i.e., as student loan debt rises, default rates decline...
 

cloudsurf

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May 10, 2003
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Shouldn`t the question now be Clinton or Trump?

Here is why Canada could be swamped by American refugees.

There is so much dissatisfaction with American mainstream politics that fully 45% of the US population is ready to vote for a far right or far left candidate. Its a joke a very scary joke.
If China pulls its debt ....the US goes bankrupt. At least Trump is familiar with that scenario.
Europe is in an even worse situation and most of Africa and the middle - east are on the verge of collapse.
Some are saying that world markets will crash this year and gold will hit 2000 /oz.

At least we have VIP-5 to distract us for a few days....lol
 

Joe.t

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So well said... This is the difference between rightist and leftist thinking. Right wing politicians serve the interests of large corporations... They do not want universal healthcare but will defend as the right for everyone to own guns and make guns available everywhere... Instead of subsidized education so that anyone including those are were not fortunate enough to be born into a rich family can make something out of themselves and be well off they rather use the money to spend on the military and have wars and lots of wars. Right wing conservative politicians are dangerous they belong in the dark ages. They are also the ones that would ban prostitution completely. They want to see everyone attend Sunday church and only can see a nude woman that is your wife and only sex with your wife.

Well said.:thumb:
 

K Douglas

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Aug 1, 2005
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Here's my take. And for the record I'm a Rubio supporter. I think he is a uniter, much in the same way Reagan was.

Clinton may very well not be able to run. There is sufficient evidence to indict her for multiple offences related to the use of her private email server. The DOJ has just offered immunity to one of her former staffers. Even if she doesn't get indicted it's an albatross around her neck. Her likability and trustworthiness factors are so low. She would lose to any Republican even Trump.
Sanders seems like a decent guy but that's not what is needed in the WH. His policies are pretty radical and his advocacy of democratic socialism for the United States is like mixing vodka and milk. He wouldn't be able to pass much through Congress unless it was significantly watered down.
Trump is an ignorant prick but he looks like he's on the way to the nomination. I think in the end most Republicans will back him and he may very well get a sizable portion of Independents and Democrats. Should be enough to get him elected.
 

CaptRenault

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Jun 29, 2003
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...Right wing conservative politicians are dangerous they belong in the dark ages. They are also the ones that would ban prostitution completely. They want to see everyone attend Sunday church and only can see a nude woman that is your wife and only sex with your wife.

You are forgetting the other half of the anti-prostitution coalition, which is the contemporary feminist movement. The approach of the feminist movement and their right wing allies to abolishing prostitution is to equate it in the public mind with "sex trafficking." This approach is embodied by an organization called Polaris that is closely allied with the Clinton (as in Bill and Hillary) Foundation. Here is an excerpt from The War on Sex Trafficking Is the New War on Drugs (in Reason.com) that describes the role Polaris plays in trying to abolish--not control, not regulate, not discourage but outright abolish--prostitution.

I know that the fierce opposition of the contemporary feminist movement to prostitution is unsettling to people who lean to the left politically but that's too bad. The anti-prostitution movement is made up of people and organizations from both the left wing and the right wing. If you want to join a political movement that is neither right nor left and is in favor of decriminalizing prostitution, then vote libertarian. But please stop pretending that it just "right wing conservative politicians" who want to abolish prostitution. Hillary Clinton and her feminist supporters wholeheartedly support abolishing prostitution.

...It's hard to think of a better representative of this institutionalization than the Polaris Project, one of America's biggest anti-trafficking groups. Founded by a man who now runs the website Everyday Feminism and a woman who now works for the federal government, Polaris has drafted multi-pronged model legislation for the taking. Compare Polaris' recommendations with state trafficking laws, and you'll find near verbatim language in some, and shared assumptions and goals in almost all.

How did Polaris gain such influence? One way is through state "report cards." Advertised as a measure of states' commitment to fighting human trafficking, it's basically a measure of how closely their laws hew to the Polaris policy wishlist. Among the must-haves: a law requiring the display of the national human trafficking hotline number, which Polaris runs with funding from Health and Human Services. States that fail to enact all of the Polaris-endorsed policies wind up with bad grades, which the organization then publicizes extensively.

Another driver of state trafficking policies is the Uniform Law Commission (ULC), a nonpartisan organization that drafts model state legislation in a variety of areas. In 2010, ULC was asked by the American Bar Association to prepare a plan for tackling human trafficking. The result was drafted in collaboration with Polaris, Shared Hope International, the National Association of Attorneys General, and the U.S. State Department, then approved by the bar association in 2013.

In the first half of 2015, two states enacted laws based on ULC's model legislation and four others introduced them. Four states enacted ULC-based trafficking laws in 2014 with 10 more attempting to. Among the model legislation's main tenets are court-ordered forfeiture of real and personal property for traffickers, providing "immunity to minors who are human trafficking victims and commit prostitution or nonviolent offenses," and imposing "felony-level punishment when the defendant offers anything of value to engage in commercial sexual activity."

That last bit is part of what's known as the "end-demand" strategy, or the "Nordic model," which focuses heavier penalties on sex buyers than sex sellers. Popularized by Nordic feminists, it's since become the law of the land in Canada and is rapidly influencing American policy, with many religious-based anti-trafficking groups also adopting its rallying cry. As a result, cities and states around the country have begun increasing penalties for prostitution clients and rebranding them as sexual predators. In Seattle, for instance, the crime of "patronizing a prostitute" was recently rechristened "sexual exploitation."

The theory behind "end demand" is that if only we arrest enough patrons or make the punishments for them severe enough, people will stop trying to purchase sex. Voila! No more prostitution, no more sex trafficking. If that sounds familiar, perhaps you're old enough to remember the '80s, when a similar approach was supposed to bring down the drug trade.

"Ending the demand for drugs is how, in the end, we will win," President Ronald Reagan declared in 1988. Indeed, it was how we were already winning: "The tide of the battle has turned, and we're beginning to win the crusade for a drug-free America," Reagan claimed.

In reality, the number of illicit drug users in America has only risen since then, despite the billions of dollars spent and hundreds of thousands of people locked away. In 1990, for instance, 7.1 percent of Americans had used some sort of illegal drug in the past month, according to the National Household Survey on Drug Abuse. By 2002 it had risen to 8.3 percent, and by 2013 to 9.4 percent.

The utter failure to "end demand" for drugs hasn't dented optimism that we can accomplish the trick with prostitution. During the "National Day of John Arrests" each year, police pose as sex workers online and then arrest would-be clients. Each year, hundreds of men are booked in these stings and charged with offenses ranging from public indecency and solicitation to pimping and sex trafficking. If these anti-trafficking efforts sound a lot like old vice policing, that's because the tactics, and results, are nearly identical.
In a study released last year by Shared Hope International and Arizona State University, researchers examined end-demand efforts in four metro areas over a four-month period. Between 50 and 60 percent of these efforts involved police decoys pretending to be teens, and no actual victims. A typical tactic is for police to post an ad pretending to be a young adult sex worker, and once a man agrees to meet, the "girl" indicates that she's actually only 16 or 17.

Shared Hope is candid about the fact that most of the men soliciting sex here are not pedophiles and not necessarily seeking out someone underage. But "distinguishing between demand for commercial sex acts with an adult and demand for commercial sex acts with a minor is often an artificial construct," its report asserted. So to save the children, we need to prosecute men who have no demonstrated interest in children, because in the future they may seek sex with adults who could actually turn out to be old-looking teens—got that?

"One shortcoming of the reverse sting approach is that no live victims are rescued from trafficking," Shared Hope admitted. "But it does take intended perpetrators of child sex trafficking off the Internet and off the streets."

Bipartisan Paranoia
A federal war on prostitution doesn't play well with large segments of Americans. Fighting human trafficking, on the other hand, is a feel-good cause. At a 2012 Clinton Global Initiative (CGI) speech, President Barack Obama insisted that we must call human trafficking "by its true name—modern slavery." And what kind of monster would be against ending slavery? Which brings us to another factor driving all this trafficking action: It makes politicians look good.

At a time when Republicans and Democrats can barely agree on anything, human trafficking bills have attracted huge bipartisan support. Here is an area where enterprising legislators can attach their names to something likely to pass. And if it doesn't pass, for whatever reason, it's ripe for demagoguery: "My opponent voted against a bill to fight modern slavery!" Tough-on-crime policies, particularly tough-on-drugs policies, used this tactic for decades, until mass incarceration finally lost its luster.
Undoubtedly, many lawmakers do legitimately want to help trafficking victims and hold bad guys accountable; political point-scoring is just a happy side effect. But a less happy side effect is a slew of bad laws, violated rights, and squandered money. The federal government has given away scores of millions in grant dollars for this quixotic crusade.

The resources spent on prostitution stings and public awareness campaigns are resources diverted from mundane but more effective strategies for helping at-risk youth, such as adding more beds at emergency shelters. The State Department's latest Trafficking in Persons report notes that "shelter and housing for all trafficking victims, especially male and labor trafficking victims, continue to be insufficient." Advocates routinely say the biggest barrier to escape for many trafficking victims is simply a lack of places to go.
 

foxhound82

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I think Clinton will take the nomination as well as win vs trump in the general. Regarding the email server issue, I don't think there will be any real issues with her ability to run. The negatives for trump will get people who don't 'like' Hilary to vote for her anyway.
 

daydreamer41

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I think Clinton will take the nomination as well as win vs trump in the general. Regarding the email server issue, I don't think there will be any real issues with her ability to run. The negatives for trump will get people who don't 'like' Hilary to vote for her anyway.

Well, Hillary is going down unless the Obama Administration obstructs justice which I doubt since the tech who set up her email server in her closet was given immunity. Hillary will get indicted. The FBI is not going to be timid in this case. I just wonder if the Dems will draft Biden at the last minute or will Sanders get the nomination by default?
 

Sky_rocket

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I'm looking forward to the day he will suspend his campaign and say it was all a practical joke on the republicans.
 

daydreamer41

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Are you sure you really know Cruz? He is the religious right-winger and would look quite bad to thinking, moderate folks if Trump did not horrify them so much that they notice nothing but Trump.

Trump has turned the Republican Nomination race into a circus. Cruz is an anti-establishment candidate. I don't know what you mean by religious right winger?
 

daydreamer41

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Compare Cruz's bio to Kasich's and see which one has promised more to religious right wingers. Cruz announced his candidacy at Liberty University, and openly identifies himself as a religious fundamentalist.

So? Cruz's father is a Minister. And there is a large religious base in the Republican party. Is Cruz identifying with fundamentalist Christians a bad thing? Cruz is the strongest supporter of the Constitutional and the Constitution gives US citizens, Freedom of religion.
 
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