SPs being able to speak English?

[tmgol]

I guess we Americans speak English even more concisely than the Brits do!

Thanks to Noah Webster getting rid of those extra "U"s (e.g. colour --> color), we sure do. I always heard that loose lips sink ships...but apparently overlong words do too!

And then, once Hemingway had come on the scene...well, the Japanese and Germans had to have been insane to declare war on us!

 

[tmgol]

If they don't believe me, they should look at who's been governing us since the 1960's. Trudeau, Mulroney, Chrétien, Martin... Lots of Québec blood there...

You can get folks in the Prairies pretty riled up with the mere recitation, reminding them just how long they've had to let the Quebeckers run the show just to keep them from busting up the Confederation.

(And no, bringing up Joe Clark doesn't help much...and Kim Campbell most definitely does not count.)

Am I just exceptionally smart, or exceptionally lucky to have been educated this way?

Can we vote for both?

One thing I'll note regarding the complaints about the quality of French in the province. At least as this pertains to young people, it echoes complaints I've heard from teachers of assorted native languages throughout North America and Europe for years. One family friend who taught high school in Germany for many years recently uncovered a bunch of old term papers in her basement. She said she was stunned when she read them again for the first time in over 20 years, realizing that she could never expect most of today's high-school students to write at that level...at least not without a whole lot of intensive catch-up work.

Oh, and finally, I couldn't help thinking of the Verbosity Sinks Ships (or should I say, Excessive Prolixity Contributes to the Untimely Capsizing of Military Sailing Vessels) comments above when I ran across the following user comment on Amazon regarding Avril Lavigne:

Watch Your Vowel Mangling, Missie!

I am writing this review in response to several empirical researches that I have carried out whilst visiting Toronto, Canada.

My findings underline a worrying development in the case of children's use of the English language.

Specifically, I am talking about the elongation of vowel sounds in the speech of teenage children who have a proclivity to listening to the music of Avril Lavigne and other such Canadian pop singers. This phenomonon is called, in technical parlance, "vowel mangling", or more commonly as "sub-dipthong abduration".

Of course, this phenomenon has a long history. Although singers such as Neil Young bravely carried the torch for decent spoken (or rather, sung) English, other Canadians have not followed suit. Only a few years ago, there was the case of Alanis Morrissette, who favoured long vowel sounds in her songs (especially her well-known trademark, the "ie-eau" sound). Of course, there was also the Bryan Adams example, which is a whole separate review...

But, I fear, Ms. Lavigne has taken vowel mangling onto a whole new level. Let us take the case of the song known as "Sk8ter Boy". There is the line, as written "the boy she turned down", which actually appears on the record as "the boy she turned do-e-oown".

What are the implications of this rather painful-sounding alteration of the vowel sounds? I fear that it teaches children to think that elongating vowels is big and clever, and that it is in fact okay to say things like "I am going to the shi-oups", when they mean "I am going to the shops".

The end point of such a development could be that the mean length of children's sentences grows by as much as 7% over the next generation. Such a development could be disasterous for Canada, and in fact the whole world, when speed of communication is at the heart of a successful global economy. Possibly world-wide recession, war and nuclear holocaust could result in the simple lengthening of a few vowels.

So, to close, I urge all parents to watch their children's vowels. You don't know where it could all end...

 

[EagerBeaver]

Train,

I am convinced that you are really Paul Martin.

This thread was really a lifelong dream and fulfillment of a fetish, if you will, which was to hear Canadians debate the politics of language and the language of politics. It was done a little bit more artfully and a little bit more tastefully than the same debate on TERB.

One other thing that was accomplished was to boost Train's posting totals on MERB ever so closer to what they are on TERB, which is a step in the right direction.

 

[EagerBeaver]

For all of you, I have to confess that I am also a martian.
I can even give you the THE FIRST PUBLIC PICTURE OF EAGER BEAVER

Aussi, à tous les québécois, TRAIN est aussi un MARTIEN . Il n'est pas une tête carrée mais bien une tête à cône!

Elvis

Elvis,

Actually I am much better looking in person.

 

[Elvis]

hornydawg

"well, I am also from quebec...born and raised. ...bla bla bla... I am very happy to have learned french and english, but, honestly, outside of quebec within canada, how many french people do you really run into? very few..I would have been better off learning cantonese or spanish which is much morer useful."

In the US, HornyDag, you can run into 1,606,790 persons speaking french.

Very surprising fact. I don't know to which extent it is reliable.
Did you know that french is the third language spoken in the US.


1 English 215,423,555
2 Spanish 28,100,725
3 French 1,606,790
4 Chinese 1,499,635

source: http://www.us-english.org/foundation/research/lia/

Anyway, if it is something from the USA, that must be very very good... It is certainly going to please our friends from the Rest of Canada...

Elvis

 

[moliere]

Elvis,

Tu es mon héros. Tu réponds de manière posée et rationelle au "Québec bashing" de ce forum.

Merci

 

[Hornee]

Martin

OK Chloe, I do not care who you voted for but I do hope that your Derriere is much more appealing in person that your dance for Martin.

Regardless it was cute, but I think you can dance better.

 

[EagerBeaver]

I hope Chloe's derriere is more appealing in person than Martin's. However, she was not at the party Friday so I really couldn't say.

 

[Lion Heart]

I hope Chloe's derriere is more appealing in person than Martin's. However, she was not at the party Friday so I really couldn't say.

Trust me Eager, Chloë has a very cute one. I had a very nice and up close encounter with it recently...

Lion Heart

 

[Lee STONE]

Lion Heart

I will second that..Chloe has a marrrrvelous derriere a sight to behold


EagerBeaver

Next time your in Mtl. you have to definitely put her on your list of must sees, and have a close up encounter yourself a hands on in the face encounter

This could be a start of a new thread..Close up encounter of Chloe's beautiful derriere


Lee STONE

 

[Hornee]

No, no, no...the butt dances are good! Keep 'em coming, it will be a prelude to the real thing!

As Lee says "a hands on in the face encounter"!

Be a proud Canadian...show your beaver! This is about as political as I am going to get.

 

[JustBob]

God that I know that people from the rest of Canada are indeed exposed to US media. That's where the problem lies: ROC is ONLY exposed to this US culture. The situation is completely different in Quebec: although we are under a direct feed here of North American culture here (Homer Simpson is all over the place), we still have managed to save, nurture and even further develop our own distinct culture.

I agree. Which is why I refuse to engage in a "culture" debate with english canadians until they manage to acquire something that remotely resembles a distinctive one.

 

[hobby11]

who cares

if a sp got a nice ass and attitude its all i care about
if u r a hdh u will be successful if u r fully bilingual
that's from what i saw...

 

[EagerBeaver]

To me these language laws are a bunch of nonsense. There is a bottom line here. If you live in Montreal and want to be successful in just about any business you need to speak both French and English. If I lived in Montreal, and I had children, they would be fluent in both languages and I could give two shits what the laws are or what qualifies them for this or that type of education. I would home school the children, if need be. If you have children you have a duty to educate them, to give them a chance to do just as well as you did, and anyone who lets a government dictate to them how to educate their kids is likely to raise kids who will be losers in life.

Where I come from, in Connecticut, everyone speaks English. I never really had a chance to speak another language on a regular basis. Last week it was suggested to me that I learn French by getting the French CDs that you pop into the CD player in your car. I may do that, but I fear that you can't teach this old dog any new tricks. However if I lived in Montreal, I am sure I would have learned French growing up. These children in Quebec should be learning both languages if the province wishes to become autonomous politically, and ultimately economically. If Quebec separates, guess what, the USA is still going to be to your neighbor to the south and we are all still going to be speaking English.

 

[JustBob]

Guess you didn't read much of this 'cause we weren't debating culture as such . Comprehension skills a little slow are they ?

Sorry, the fact that you used the words culture/cultural over 15 times in your posts must have confused me.

My post was tongue-in-cheek. Nice to meet you too.

 

[Lion Heart]

About the Language Laws

In my humble late 50s baby-boomer born (and French-speaking) Quebecer opinion, language laws were a requirement in Quebec back in the 60s and 70s. It was Robert Bourassa’s Liberal Federalist Government that introduced the first Language Act (Bill 22). Back then, the mother tongue 80% of Quebecers was French but this majority could barely work in French or even get service in French in a Montreal Eaton's Downtown Department Store. A very self-centered and isolated Anglophone community was dominating Quebec's economy and were imposing there own rules. It was the time of the “Speak White” (meaning English). Sadly, the Anglo community back then could not care less about the “French Frogs” majority and were speaking English only.

Once elected, the Parti Québecois only strengthen the existing language laws to ensure that the language of the majority, French, would have its rightful place in the public education system and the marketplace. As French became the official workplace language, more and more college and university educated Quebecers took control of Quebec’s economy and brought it where it is today. French-speaking Quebecers no longer afraid of speaking English with their economical conterparts in the US and the rest of the world. Without Quebec language laws back then, the majority of French-speaking Quebecers would have been assimilated by now.

Political independence was relevant in the 70’s and the 80’s. It would have greatly speed-up the economical integration of French-speaking Quebecers in the global marketplace. I’m sure Quebec as a whole would be even better off today. But that decision to go politically independent was not made when it was time to make a difference. It is no longer relevant these days, a simple question of market globalization and broad economical integration.

Quebec's language laws are indeed more or less useful these days, as political independence itself. But frankly, I don’t think the language and independence issues are a concern or a priority now for a majority of Quebecers. There are more pressing economical and social issues.

The only reason you might see a separatist government back in power in Quebec is because our current bread of Federalist politicians (in Quebec and in Ottawa) simply stinks. Not because a majority of Quebecers wants political independence or need language laws to live long and prosper.

Lion Heart

 

[Lion Heart]

CaptRenault: seems we posted almost simultaneously following Eagerbeaver contribution and have a similar analysis. Could'nt agree with you more with the necessity of the historical perspective here.

Lion Heart

 

[JustBob]

Lion Heart and CaptRenault nailed it. Now we could ask, since we have achieved a strong cultural identity, do we still need these language laws? Probably not as much as we used to but we still need mechanisms, whether in the form of language laws, quotas, or other to protect our culture. A culture's strength comes from what it produces and this comes in large part from the creativity brought about by a strong sense of identity. But that's not enough when you are surrounded by a sea of people who speak a different language who dump all their crap on you because they have the $$$ to do it. And I'm mostly referring to our good imperialistic neighbors to the south.

 

[Lion Heart]

LH in his late 50's... wow, you sure fooled me. All that roaring messed up my age-radar

Chloë : Don't check your radar, I think I didn't stick my English non-mother tongue quite right this time. I meant to say that I was a baby-boomer born in the late 50's, which make me in my late 40's and explain among other things my on-going roaring capacity my dear

Roars and kisses,
Lion Heart

 

[Rexroth]

And beyond all that, english is the easiest language to learn in the world. Any dummy dude living anywhere in the world can learn it by taking a 2-weeks intensive course. Ok, you need to make the distinction between the "Bizness engliche" which is all that is needed to do business in the world and read the "Getting Started" in the shrink-wrapped software boxes and the true english, the english of Shakespeare, which is a very sophisticated language. L'anglais de base est une langue juxtaposée tandis que le français, par exemple, est une langue articulée, beaucoup plus sophistiquée. C'est très différent.That's why english has spreaded so rapidly.

??????????????????? And here I thought the rapid spread of English had everything to do with exploitation and colonialism.

Supreme Court ruling – don’t be so hasty; after all there is the opting out clause in the constitution.


Language education – Ontario vs. Quebec. True, the French taught in Ontario is probably not stellar in quality, but then English-language language instruction in Quebec’s French schools is not all that hot either (see section below). On the other hand, qualifying as fluent in French in the civil service requires mastering such complex sentences as “Bonjour, je m’appelle un tel,” whereas for Québécois (who are often accused of not even speaking “real” French), qualifying as fluent in English demands intimate familiarity with such things gerunds or the subjunctive tense: If I had the means, I would have a peach for breakfast every morning.

Bilingual education: while schools in the English School Commission increasingly offer bilingual curricula, the lingua franca is English. What children tend to retain more than anything else is the language of the school yard (English). Indeed, I have seen children go from being fluent in French (after X years of daycare in unilingual French) to having a hard time asking for an ice cram cone in French after a couple of years at a bilingual school, especially if there is no French-language reinforcement at home. Still, it is much better than what is offered in the French School Commissions, where grade four children are still struggling to learn the names of the various body parts, with the upshot being no doubt that they will never grasp the interesting metaphorical extensions of, say, the word “peach,” particularly when it is juxtaposed with the word “fuzz.”

Rexroth