SPs being able to speak English?

[JustBob]

The French schooling did not in any wise affect, hinder, or impinge on my efforts to learn English.

I agree. Does this mean that schools do a poor job of teaching second languages? Not necessarily. I'd argue that you're not going to become fluent in a language by sitting at a school desk. Unless you are in an immersive environment where you are FORCED to speak the language, your skills will forever remain limited. In essence, regardless of the quality of teaching in a class environment, you will mostly achieve your goal of becoming fluent by:

a) Learning on your own, i.e. reading books and/or watching tv/films, etc...

b) Putting yourself in a position where you don't have any choice but to speak the language you want to learn, i.e. student exchange programs and such.

 

[orallover]

so, I should become a SP and handle french speaking ladies only to improve my French.
Should they pay me or I pay them (since they will be teaching me French) ?

 

[EagerBeaver]

Just Bob,

I completely agree with your analysis. And this is why we Americans struggle with our French language skills. We don't have any French people where I live. All we do is speak English all the time. So when I come to Montreal and I hear people speaking in French, I struggle. I only know a few words. The pronunciations are very hard and when I listen to French the words run together in my ears. I like the sound of the language, actually, but I just don't understand it. I probably will never be in the situation of being forced to learn it. Which is why I think the French CD thing isn't going to work for me.

I was offered French in secondary and high school, but opted for Spanish because we have more Spanish speakers in Connecticut than French speakers. However, even the academic French is useless unless you are practicing it. I don't have anyone to practice with here in Connecticut. The only practice I get is when I see SPs in Montreal.

 

[Rexroth]

No there isn't. The appeal which was partially successful was the Casimir case. It was decided under section 23. Section 33 (the so-called "notwithstanding clause") only applies to sections 2-7 and 15.

The appeal in the Gosselin et al case was rejected under both section 23 and 15.

Thank you. I was hoping someone would correct me.

 

[JustBob]

so, I should become a SP and handle french speaking ladies only to improve my French.
Should they pay me or I pay them (since they will be teaching me French) ?

If you're not already a cunning linguist with that username, I'd say you are misrepresenting yourself.

 

[JustBob]

Just Bob,

I was offered French in secondary and high school, but opted for Spanish because we have more Spanish speakers in Connecticut than French speakers. However, even the academic French is useless unless you are practicing it. I don't have anyone to practice with here in Connecticut. The only practice I get is when I see SPs in Montreal.

I hear ya. It makes a heck of a lot more sense for an American to learn Spanish than any other language.

 

[Ministry]

Found the following on my bloomberg terminal this morning. Thought you guys and gals might find interesting.

---
Quebec French-Language Law Upheld for Schoolchildren (Update1)
2005-03-31 14:42 (New York)

By Joe Schneider
March 31 (Bloomberg) -- Quebec can prohibit French-speaking
students from receiving an English-language education in the
province's public schools without violating Canada's
constitution, the nation's highest court ruled.
``Equality rights, while of immense importance, constitute
just part of our constitutional fabric,'' Canada's Supreme Court
said in a unanimous ruling posted on its Web site. ``Language
education rights cannot be subordinated to the equality rights
guarantees.''
The ruling may quell separatist sentiment in Quebec, where
more than half the people speak French only and the rest are
bilingual, according to the 2001 census. The separatist Parti
Quebecois is the main opponent of provincial Premier Jean
Charest, whose Liberal government has a disapproval rating of 69
percent.
Rejection of the provincial language law ``would have given
the Parti Quebecois a very important issue, and it would have
made life difficult for the current government,'' Christopher
Manfredi, a political science professor at Montreal's McGill
University, said in a telephone interview.
Ten years ago in a referendum, Quebec residents rejected a
proposal to secede from Canada by a 2 percent margin. Separation
was also rejected in a 1980 vote.

`Linguistic Truce'

Quebec is Canada's second-most populous province, with 7.3
million people, behind Ontario, and accounts for about 24 percent
of the country's economy. Quebec allows access to English-
language schools for children whose parents studied in English in
Canada at the primary level. Others must attend French-only
schools.
Richard Marceau, a member of the Bloc Quebecois party, which
promotes provincial interests in the national parliament, called
the ruling a victory.
``The linguistic truce we've had for a few years has been
preserved,'' he said in a telephone interview.
Quebec also prohibits posting English commercial signs that
are bigger than signs in French and imposes strict French-
speaking rules in provincial workplaces.

French-Speaking Families

The education law was challenged by eight French-speaking
families who sought to have their children educated in English-
language schools. Six of the parents were born in Quebec and
taught in French schools, one was born and schooled outside
Quebec, and the other is an immigrant.
Their challenge was rejected by two lower courts.
Brent Tyler, a lawyer for the parents, said the Supreme
Court didn't take into consideration treaties signed by Quebec.
``I've been given the mandate by some of my clients to go
further and to bring this case before the human rights commission
of the United Nations,'' Tyler said in an interview broadcast by
the Canadian Broadcasting Corp. ``There's not one country on the
planet that restricts access to public services and schools'' as
Quebec and Canada do.
The case is Roger Gosselin v Attorney General of Quebec and
Commissioner of Official Languages of Canada, Supreme Court of
Canada, Ottawa, 29298.

--With reporting by Alexandre Deslongchamps in Ottawa. Editor:
Pinsley.

 

[Lion Heart]

According to pool results, some 30% of Quebecers are "indépendantistes" these days. They believe, in their own rights, that political separation from the ROC will enable Quebec to further develop itself more efficiently. A good part, but not all, are "péquistes" (members or supporters of the Parti Québécois).

I was an "indépendantiste" in the 70s and the 80s, voted for the Parti Québecois and voted "yes" in the first referendum. In my opinion, political independance back then was a solution to secure the French language and culture and to ensure the sustainable economical development of Quebec. It would have speed up Quebec's liberation from the stronghold of the Anglo minority on the French majority. As the ROC did not understand (and still don't) the different nature of the Quebec society, breaking political ties at that time was making sense. Because in good part of the Parti Québecois social-democracy policies and interventions, Quebec did manage to evolve positively without independence (but always with the menace of partition).

The independentist model is no longer relevant in the world we are leaving in. Could Quebec develop itself without the ROC ? My personal answer is YES. Is political independence from the ROC necessary to achieve the same developement while protecting the French-speaking majority language and culture ? My personal answer is NO. Economical unions are a must now, political unions are more or less relevant.

This being said, the real problem is the absence of intelligent political leadership in all parties, both at the Federal level and in Quebec. That's what I'm really afraid of during the coming years.

Lion Heart

 

[orallover]

do we have a lawyer in the house?

 

[JustBob]

Look, it’s simple. The only people who will be able to continue to give their children a bilingual education if these laws persist are the families with money to enrol them in private school or pay for private English lessons. Which brings me back to my elite bilingual class and francophone “classe populaire” theory.

Chloë

I don't agree with your assessment because:

1. What % of middle to lower class families would want to send their kids to english public schools if they could? My guess, 1 % or less. The impact on bilingualism would be insignificant, and what little impact there is would be limited to big cities like Montreal, i.e. you can't send your kids to english schools where there are none.

2. Moreover, those families that would have wanted to send their kids to english schools are those that are fully aware of the importance of bilingualism. As was noted previously, there are countless other means by which a kid can become bilingual. My guess again, those parents will see to it that their kids become bilingual anyway.

 

[Lion Heart]

Dear femaleluver:

Your observations about the Church domination are well taken but these issues were already dealt with during the "Révolution Tranquille" in the 50s and 60s. The education reforms from that era do explain in great part the emergence of French-speaking Quebecers in all spheres of activity.

Take note that I didn't say political independance was the ONLY solution but was A solution. I'm still firmly convinced that political independance from the ROC would have significantly speed up French Quebecer's emancipation process back in the 70s, even in the early 80s. The Federal Government greatly indered this, specially under the Trudeau era.

The emancipation happened otherwise under a succession of Liberal and Parti Québecois governements, both boosting nationalist and social-democrat policies. The main differences is that partition was not an option for the Liberal party and that the Parti Québecois was more "state interventionist".

Lion Heart

 

[EagerBeaver]

126 Replies and 3,638 Views after I started this thread, all you Canadians are making this American feel like Dr. Frankenstein. I have created a monster!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Lion Heart]

Blind driving?

Strange you say that because it was mainly for economical reasons that I was supportive of Quebec's political independence more than 30 years ago. Back then, Quebec's economy was not in the hand of the French-speaking majority and independence would have yield positive results much faster than it finally did by staying within the Canadian entity. Education and languages issues could and were effectively been dealt within the Federal system. Through its development policies, research infrastructures investments and program expenses, the Federal government has been clearly bias towards Ontario for decades. Had Quebec been independent in the 70s, I'm convince we would had the economical resources to do a better job. It's still for economical reasons that I don't believe independence would now be a solution given market globalization.

Concerning your second point, I don’t agree with your assessment of the current education system. Overall, it don’t produces more good or bad apples than before. The “cour classique” had the advantage to insist on language skills and to provide more general culture within the curriculum. Perfect for politicians, lawyers and social sciences. Not as relevant for other type of professionals or technicians. I don’t know why, but girls succeed incredibly well under the current system, boys don’t. We’ll have as good of an elite as in the old days, but they may be women instead of men.

Keeping your car analogy, both the Canadian and Quebec caddies are currently driven by politicians who are blind and mentally-handicap. Unfortunately for all of us, they are stirring us off road near the edge of the cliff. I’m not sure what they consider to be a step forward in these conditions will be very good for us passengers.

Lion Heart

 

[JustBob]

The fear of an outside threat is the oldest political trick in the book and has been used since times immemorial to keep populations in check. So yes (not as much today although you still see traces of it), the big bad english wolf has certainly been used as a political tool to promote nationalism.

 

[EagerBeaver]

regna D,

Since you injected the issue of the U.S. draft dodgers into this thread, I read something interesting about this recently.

In John Grisham's novel "The Last Juror", which is set in Mississippi circa 1970, one of the characters becomes a draft dodger and moves to Canada, where he meets a Canadian woman and settles down. Grisham suggests that many of the draft dodgers eventually married Canadian women, became Canadian citizens and remained in Canada even after they received a presidential pardon from Jimmy Carter.

I am wondering if the Canadian government has ever done any studies on these draft dodgers and what % became Canadian citizens and what % returned to the USA post-pardon by Carter.

With respect to the "big bad English wolf," we have to remember that it was also used as a political tool to create American independence. However, I have a sense that it was more of a political reality then than it is now. Still, I am interested in knowing if this would be sufficient to galvanize a successful Quebec secessionist movement at this time. It still has not been sufficiently explained to me why Quebec's independence would be a good rather than a bad thing. From my standpoint as an American, my concern would be that some new laws would be enacted that would interfere with my hobbying activities. In that regard I prefer the status quo. As the saying goes, the devil that you know is better than the devil that you don't know.

 

[Lion Heart]

Thinking about it....

…. I'm surprised at the level of intellectual responses I read on this forum. It's very nice to see. Not just in this thread, but everywhere

Chloé: I'm not surprised. After all, "SP" in French also stands for "Sciences Politiques" (Political Sciences). And thread exchanges with "deep toughts" and "deep throats" stories share something in common : deep

On a more serious note, thanks for all the info. A little history always helps put things in perspective. I share your feelings concerning Trudeau. He was a great man indeed, very much in tone with foreign affairs during his era but his vision of a bilingual Canada under a strong and centralized Central governement was simply not reflecting Quebec's anticipations for autonomy in the area of language, culture and economy.

By the way, if you still don't know what to do next Sunday, give me a call !

Lion Heart

 

[Elvis]

Much later, when that ‘assimilation’ and ‘destruction of culture’ threat disappears, Quebec politicians continues to tell the people it's still alive and well. After Lévesque, they cause a rally around the flag.... ( I shall get flamed by the Elvises out there, I know. I can handle it.)

I am sot sure I can follow you Chloé. To which "rally" are you referring"? The referendum?

Elvis

 

[Lion Heart]

Whether you like it or not, the departure of a portion of the English-speaking minority you are refering to in your last post was the inevitable price to pay for the French-speaking majority takeover of Quebec's economy. You forget to mention that this economy transformed dramatically during the 70s and 80s at the same time the Parti Québecois was in power. Yes, some business moved (and are still moving) while others came (and are still coming). Quebec economy shifted from natural ressouces exploitation and textile to a knowlegdge-based service economy with the transformation sector lead by small and medium size businesses rather than large multi-national corporation. This evolution would have come regardless of independance but while the Federal government grossly favoured Ontario during all that time, Quebec suffered at lot.

I won't obviously convinced you that political independence during that time would have been better for both French and English speaking communities, you're already convinced otherwise. I won't change my opinion either. But in any event, this is all history now. The real challenge for Quebec and the ROC is now to face world competition in every sector of activity.

By the way, I read EVERYthing.

Lion Heart

 

[Lion Heart]

Indeed. Thanks to you also.

Lion Heart

 

[orallover]

Unfortunately, that is way too much of a sophisticated approach for the separatists to understand. So they are about to become extinct.

well, not quite. I think I heard that Mr.Jacques P. was saying that we don't need any more referendum. If people of Quebec vote for PQ to be the party to govern then that is good enough to declare independence.
I don't like that idea, it just does not sound right.