The official 2013 NFL thread

[Merlot]

...what they are saying is that Martin is a pussy...

Boys,

This theory is going around, but I was wondering about what Martin's playing record indicates. If Martin is a "pussy" why is he on the team? Is he just a last ditch reserve player? Are the Dolphins desperate for backups that much? What has Martin done on the team? Did he ever start? According to ESPN this morning Martin has started every game since he joined the Dolphins. REALLY??? So in the judgment of the coaches Martin has been the best choice at his position to help win games since his arrival. There goes the "pussy theory" right out the window.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/f...ncognito-called-n-word-game-article-1.1508732
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9...incognito-alleged-molestation-2012-no-charges

Was Incognito just doing a job he was told to do? Well, trash talk in an NFL locker room would make a sailor blush sometimes. Warren Sapp claims Incognito called him a n....r during a game to bait him into a mistake. Still just trash talk? It could be that Martin is the type that doesn't fit into a hardcore verbally abusive atmosphere? Is Incognito capable of something worse than NFL trash talk? Last year Incognito was investigated for alleged sexual harassment. According to the police report: The 34-year-old volunteer told police Incognito had been drinking and was "acting very inappropriate towards her," and that she went to police after Incognito said he wouldn't apologize. The report states that the volunteer told police that Incognito "used his golf club to touch her by rubbing it up against her vagina, then up her stomach then to her chest. He then used the club to knock a pair of sunglasses off the top of her head.

Now Martin claims the straw that broke the camel's back was Incognito's gross verbal insults towards his sister. That could be just a counter claim. Is there anything to show it is a tactic likely from Incognito? He was dumped from two college teams for behavior issues, put on a Do Not Draft list for being too problematic, one posted racist comment, another racist claim, posted threats to kill, alleged sexual harassment with a golf club, video of him using the racist comment and behaving obnoxiously.

Martin is a backstabber? Okay, how so? Did he betray the other players or just reject a highly abusive atmosphere that was getting out of control? Well, any guy who doesn't go along would be called a "backstabber", especially if there was concern he might expose a dysfunctional locker room the press was about to come calling on, making it necessary for others to band together against him.

Then again, maybe Martin is just a pussy who the team thought fit and worthy enough to start every game (23) until he walked out, and Incognito is just an innocent guy who happens to be a big harmless joker.

LAWSUIT???

As I said in an earlier post about what position Incognito put himself and possibly the team into by sending traceable text with racist comments and death threats:

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9...an-martin-sue-miami-dolphins-richie-incognito

If Jonathan Martin is looking to get back at his alleged bully, Richie Incognito, Martin could consider doing what most Americans do when they have suffered harm from the misconduct of another -- file a lawsuit. Fortunately for Martin and unfortunately for Incognito, the law of Florida has just what Martin needs as a basis for a formidable lawsuit.

A Florida law -- Evidencing Prejudice While Committing Offense -- provides the legal foundation for a civil lawsuit that would seek to assess monetary damages against Incognito. It provides for money damages for anyone who "has been intimidated or threatened" on the basis of "race or color." News accounts indicate there is little doubt Incognito has been threatening and intimidating Martin for many months, and that a portion of his attacks were based on race.

Incognito's use of the N-word and his threats "to kill" would appear to qualify Martin for money damages at Incognito's expense.

It gets even better for Martin. The Florida law provides for triple damages -- yes, triple damages -- and would allow Martin to collect his legal fees from Incognito. These provisions could produce a significant jury verdict for Martin at Incognito's expense.

Martin's current salary is a bit more than $600,000. If he were to return to the NFL and enjoy a typical career as an offensive lineman, he would be expected to earn another $5 million or $6 million. If his career is worth $5 million, and Incognito's threats ended the career, Martin could collect as much as $15 million. Legal fees could be added to the jury award and push the total close to $17 million. Martin's career under this Florida law may be more valuable in court than it is on the field.

continued...

It constantly amazes me what people think is okay to send or post publicly on texts, facebook, twitter, etc. From personal experience I know some people have no clue what "Free Speech" is and isn't. Also, why are some of the general public clueless behind their keyboards when they wouldn't be otherwise?


Merlot

 

[EagerBeaver]

Merlot,

Published reports indicate the Dolphins coaches ordered Incognito to toughen Martin up. If such reports are true, they obviously thought he was a pussy. Maybe he was starting because the backups suck. Various things I read about Martin indicate that the team thought he lacked toughness, and that was based on poor or disappointing on field performance. He graded #63 out of 69 NFL tackles last year who took at least 300 snaps. So he has not yet proven he is an adequate or average NFL offensive lineman. It should also be noted the Dolphins switched his position because of all the sacks and penalties he gave up last year. The fact he was starting had to do with the money he was being paid. The Dolphins made an investment in him. So the fact that he was starting is irrelevant; there are plenty of young players starting because they are getting paid starter money, and the team wants to see if they can become the player they are being paid to be. This is common sense that every sports fan knows. Martin is an unproven 2nd year player playing on his 1st contract.

Most of the scouting reports I read on Martin coming in to the NFL questioned in particular his strength to handle explosive NFL behemoths coming at him off the DL, and those questions have lingered. His strength was said to be his run-blocking coming into the NFL, but he was called upon to do a lot of pass-blocking and his pass-blocking needed work. And still needs work.

There have been thousands of dysfunctional locker rooms in the NFL. This is the only one in history that has gotten exposed in this fashion with reports of bullying and a player being suspended based on a private telephone conversation having been released to the media by agents or attorneys. It is Martin's own teammates and peers who are calling him a backstabber. They are saying things like "these things should stay in house". The reason why is that these things always have stayed in house until now. Martin will be viewed with suspicion by any team he ever plays on in the future. He damaged himself severely by handling this situation the way he chose to handle it, which was absolutely not the right way to handle it at all. If he was so badly bullied why did he never once go to the head coach to discuss the problem? Or confront the alleged bullies?

 

[Joe.t]

M,

While I fully understand that hazing is a part of the NFL Creed, I have a hard time believing that the racial slurs are an accepted part of it. Perhaps the only major sport that is more integrated than NFL Football is the NBA. I just can't accept that specific type of behavior mixed in. Further by your own comments the Dolphin Management couldn't have been without knowledge as to Incognito's issues. I suspect their overzealous efforts to finally put together a winning program simply got the best of them. The team has never really been the same after Joe Robbie passed. People forget that NFL Football is a business and that upper management has a hand in setting the tone.

I'm considering becoming a Patriots Fan.......

I hope this thought does not get past the considering stage, if you want to be associated with a dirty, cheating, dishonest organization that has been well documented over the years be my guest, my advise is to stick with the Dolphins.

My picks for this week from the Pro-line website which is the legal betting site in Ontario, I smell a big bounce back week.

Philadelphia -1.5 over Green Bay.

Buffalo +3.5 over Pittsburgh.

Baltimore +2.0 over Cincinnati.

My sure shot pick is my Raiders +8.5 over the Giants.(I nail this one I nail Gabrielle from SD next week so I hope my Raiders come through).

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

Good luck, Joe. Here's hoping you can cut back on some of your massive losses.

 

[EagerBeaver]

Incognito Feels Betrayed by Martin

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9948531/richie-incognito-feels-betrayed-jonathan-martin

 

[Merlot]

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9948531/richie-incognito-feels-betrayed-jonathan-martin

"It's probably a combination of totally blindsided and a bit betrayed," the source said of Incognito's current state. "He's shocked. He can't believe this happened and thinks it probably could have been avoided."

You're hanging out with a guy you work with even though his sarcastic wit has gotten pretty annoying just because you want to try to get along. Sometimes it turns out Mr. sarcasm can be a real character and fun to be with, but you've got to work to take the sarcasm and insults with a laugh. Still, funny boy never lets up and only gets worse. When you tell him he needs to back off with the trash talk he only tells you it's just a joke, be a man, toughen up, don't act like a cry baby. Finally sir sarcasm resorts to calling you a dumb ass n****r and if you can't take it (in his twisted view) he's going to kill you and then go sexually attack your sister and have her raped by others. You realize your tormentor is just a demented bullying jackass and you report him to the boss.

http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2013/11/7/5079266/jonathan-martin-claims-physically-attacked-sister
"We are going to run train on your sister ... She loves me. I am going to f-k her without a condom and c- in her c-."

So despite your attempt to get along and warnings the vitriolic attacks have to stop the racism spewing jerk feels betrayed that you won't take his crap any more...that you reported him for harassment and threats to you and your family instead of beating the shit out of him? Your at fault because some trash mouth asshole feels betrayed when you refuse to be his whipping boy target? GIVE ME A BREAK!!!

It seems EB that pertinent facts are always "irrelevant" when they don't support your view. Pussies simply can't make it to the NFL and start every game. They get weeded out of their college programs, especially a major often nationally ranked one. If it was possible the college let him get by, then NFL pre-draft vetting process should do take care of that. Even if that failed the team would be at fault for failing to identify a critical fault they can now see with their own eyes, and even more at fault for sticking with that person to start for 23 games. Then if the Dolphins can't find an adequate replacement for a "pussy" they are a major failure as an organization.

If every other guy on the team is a "Bad Ass" who IS tough enough then why wasn't there anyone to replace an allegedly inadequate "pussy" like Martin? That's called management failure. That or the idea of Martin being a pussy is a lie and Incognito is just a major over-the-top asshole, no matter how much NFL teams prize aggression.

http://nesn.com/2013/11/report-dolp...unch-richie-incognito-when-complaints-raised/

If he was so badly bullied why did he never once go to the head coach to discuss the problem? Or confront the alleged bullies?

The reason is obvious, doing that only gets others to turn against you anyway. And according to the report above you're wrong. "Martin’s agent told Ireland about the way Incognito was treating Martin in a phone call. Ireland’s response, according to Florio, was that Martin should handle the matter himself by confronting Incognito physically. He specifically said Martin should “punch” Incognito, according to the report."

Personally, I would not have blamed Martin for blind-siding Incognito, knocking him on his ass and pummeling him in front of the team until he can't get up. Given attitudes among teammates and in the NFL Martin knew his chances of playing again anywhere after leaving are very slim to none. But whether you beat the crap out of a guy or report him there's no excuse for racist insults and vile attacks on your family no matter how the NFL prizes aggression.

:thumb:

Merlot

 

[EagerBeaver]

And according to the report above you're wrong. "Martin’s agent told Ireland about the way Incognito was treating Martin in a phone call. Ireland’s response, according to Florio, was that Martin should handle the matter himself by confronting Incognito physically. He specifically said Martin should “punch” Incognito, according to the report."

I am not wrong at all. Men do not communicate through their agents or their attorneys. Men sit down and have a face to face conversation and do not deliver their thoughts through third parties. This is why Martin is being viewed suspiciously by his teammates. They expect Martin to have said something, not his agent and attorney after the fact. His teammates have all said no protests ever came out of his mouth. Other NFL players have been in the same situation as Martin and resolved the issues through in house communication or physical retaliation that involved THEM, not their agents or attorneys. How Martin dealt with the issue is what is at issue. He basically sent the message to his teammates, through his silence, that he was OK with the abuse he was getting.

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

Men do not communicate through their agents or their attorneys. Men sit down and have a face to face conversation and do not deliver their thoughts through third parties. This is why Martin is being viewed suspiciously by his teammates.

Interesting coming from you. So all your clients are female?

I sincerely hope that you do not provide this stupid advice to all men who contact your office. "So your CFO embezzled $500,000 from your firm. Just go work it out with him."

 

[EagerBeaver]

Interesting coming from you. So all your clients are female?

I sincerely hope that you do not provide this stupid advice to all men who contact your office. "So your CFO embezzled $500,000 from your firm. Just go work it out with him."

I think you are comparing apples and oranges. A professional football lockerroom has its own set of rules, that do not apply elsewhere. The issues we are talking about are issues that do not normally get resolved by or through attorneys and agents. In fact, they never get resolved by attorneys or agents in any sport, unless it is to engineer a trade and not to talk to the media. It is not stupid advice at all, for a professional football player who wants to have a long career and be respected by his teammates.

If he wanted to resolve the issues through an attorney and/or agent, he could have simply asked the Dolphins to trade him, and tell them he wasn't happy there and did not want to play for the team. Would have done a whole lot less collateral damage to himself, and that would have been my advice to him since he had already chosen to bypass the direct communication method of problem resolution.

Next team he goes to, if there is a next team, nobody will talk to this guy EVER except for football Xs and Os. Because he is the guy who released a private conversation to the media, and he will always be remembered as a guy who releases private conversations to the media. I question what level of interest any team will have in him. He graded 63rd of 69 NFL tackles with 300 snaps plus last year, that is the one fact we have on his production level.

 

[Merlot]

I am not wrong at all.

No protests ever came out of his mouth.

Huh,

If you seriously believe any guy, especially an NFL player who is by definition an A-type personality, didn't tell the tormentor to knock it off or fuck-off face to face then you can't be taken seriously. Really EB, can you explain specifically whether you actually believe that or you are just repeating the Dolphin's position? I'm not an A-type and I've told off assholes much bigger than me without going to anyone else. So Incognito badgered Martin to the point of recorded ugly racist and family threat comments and Martin never protested even once??? That would not only be being a pussy...it's being a submissive coward...in the N-F-L!!! No person could believe that. No indication of protest against harsh personal vitriol for a year or more before being angry enough to walk away from a $million career. NOT A CHANCE!

It's certain that the Dolphins are spinning this precisely to cover their asses, and no one else is going to contradict the team's position to protect their $million careers, as well as potential personal lawsuits individually, which Martin is clearly moving toward. I see the situation this way: since the team has said publicly they told Incognito to toughen up Martin they are at least partially culpable for his illegal excesses and are now doing all they can to be sure everyone is on the same page to knock down Martin's credibility in the face of recorded evidence.

Interesting coming from you.

Yes, coming from someone whose profession is legal counseling, it's funny to infer no real man would come to him.

BTW EB: You're skipping over the key aspect of the issue which is the ILLEGALITY of recorded messages to emphasize the view the VICTIM is a pussy. That's pretty interesting for a lawyer to do.

I doubt either man will play in the NFL again, especially Incognito whose methods are poison to any team.


truly,

Merlot

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

Yes, coming from someone whose profession is legal counseling, it's funny to infer no real man would come to him.

Well, don't forget that the Beav spent 9 years in the NFL as a defensive lineman so he knows how this stuff works.

Or maybe he didn't and doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about. Don't you just adore stereotyping, or as we call it, FGNS (Friendly Gay Neighobor Syndrome?)

 

[EagerBeaver]

Merlot,

This is not coming from the Dolphins management, it is coming from every individual Dolphins player who has reported that they saw no issues between Martin and Incognito and that Martin never objected to the alleged harassment. As I said in my last post, any attorney probably would have counseled Martin to seek a trade, and the other stuff -releasing tapes of private conversations to the media- was unnecessary and harmful to his career. He needlessly created bad PR for himself. This is common sense. There were ways out of this situation that were far better than the one he chose, and it is silly that you guys deny that. You would have advised him to take the course of action that he took? Do you realize the NFL has been around for years, stuff like this has gone on for years and nobody has ever taken this course of action? In fact it has happened in other sports, teams became aware of it and they traded the player involved. I can think of many situations where teams traded players who had issues in the clubhouse or lockerroom that they became aware of. And nipped a possible problem in the bud.

Did the Dolphins not handle the situation well? I said from the very beginning that they didn't.

For things to have gone this far tells me the Dolphins coaches do not have any pulse on their lockerroom and if they don't then they are suck-ass coaches.

Communicating with players is a 2 way street, obviously.

 

[anon_vlad]

There aren't any workplaces more macho than a football team. Professional football players have been coddled as athletic stars since secondary school, are extraordinarily powerful physically, and make millions at a young age in a very violent environment. Most are in constant pain and take drugs, some of which alter their moods. I would guess that the vast majority are assholes and a non trivial proportion psychopaths.

While deaths are rare, NFLers take more of a pounding than most soldiers - and every week for several months. They are effectively at war and have to resolve issues within their own company. A three hundred pound lineman can't be seen as a tattletale. Martin should have dealt with Incognito mano a mano or, at worst, by going to management.

I don't see any indication that the Dolphins approved the racial slurs. As for the pulse of the locker room, is management supposed to monitor the private communications of every player?

 

[EagerBeaver]

AV,

Herm Edwards who played and then head coached in the NFL 30 years said he was always able to identify these lockerroom issues by talking to the team trainers, the team equipment managers and the team strength coaches. That is where the head coach gathers his locker room intelligence, from those 3 sources. Edwards said he had the same kinds of issues get identified and he nipped them in the bud by using these key sources to keep in tune with the pulse of his team. I agree with you on executive management, and the rest of your post I also agree with. There would be no reason for the head coach to go to management with these issues, it would only show he can't control his own lockerroom. So he identifies the problem and then he deals with it, and that is what Edwards said he did, and so did Mike Ditka, from what they have reported on ESPN.

I think Martin has raised an issue with all other teams that might want him as to whether he can blend into their lockerroom and whether his teammates can trust him as a team player who keeps problems in house. Any team that might look to pick him up is going to look closely at this and decide whether he can be a good teammate. Offensive lines work together as units, and teamwork and chemistry on the OL is crucial. Jury is also out on whether the guy is a pussy, and frankly that is what is being reported the Dolphins coaching staff thought of him.

 

[Special K]

My sure shot pick is my Raiders +8.5 over the Giants.(I nail this one I nail Gabrielle from SD next week so I hope my Raiders come through).

As usual Joe's sure SHIT pick of the week has an over inflated line of 1.5 pts. Your picks are a legit joke Joe. Use a real line instead of one you make up in your head.
http://www.vegas.com/gaming/sportsline/football/

 

[EagerBeaver]

JoeT,

I see you did not touch the Dolphins game which was a smart move, but I am mystified by your pick on the Giants game. The line does seem to be inflated at first glance, but the Giants come in off a bye week and they played well the 2 weeks before the bye. They got Peyton Hillis who has shored up their terrible rushing attack in those 2 games and they are by no means out of it in the NFC East. Dallas is going down at New Orleans and a win against the Raiders puts the Giants 1.5 games behind Dallas, with a home game against Dallas yet to be played. Because Dallas cannot win big games, that means the Giants are effectively .5 games back of Dallas after winning today, because you have to figure they will beat Dallas at home. It is not over for the Giants, yet it is totally over for the Raiders. Did you think about all of these things?

You still have 5 hours to change your pick and I urge you to do so. NEVER PICK A TEAM THAT HAS NOTHING TO PLAY FOR OVER ONE THAT DOES.

 

[Joe.t]

Beav- I am picking the Raiders to cover but not to win, I am just not so sure the Giants will cover, I think this is a big put up game or else for Raiders QB Pryor, he needs to make a statement for job security.

And for the umpteenth time the lines I use are not over inflated, they are the lines from Pro line which is the legal betting site in Ontario.

http://proline.olg.ca/pointspreadEvents.do

 

[EagerBeaver]

Joe, please change the pick, Pryor is going nowhere, he sucks, and the Giants are going to win this game by more than 8.5 points. Change the pick now while you still can. And never say I don't look out for your wallet dude! I can do more than calm down angry building managers who were never told about a large private party.

 

[Joe.t]

Thanks Beav but I already paid for my ticket, but I have the Giants on another ticket where you just have to pick the winner straight up, again, using pro line where you can make different types of wagers.

 

[EagerBeaver]

Fox Interview With Richie Incognito

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/...than-Martin-Jay-Glazer-full-transcript-111013

Jay Glazer confirms that Jonathan Martin sent Incognito a text message threatening to murder Incognito's family.

http://bostonherald.com/sports/patr...cognito_says_martin_sent_him_threatening_text