The vaccine passport (QR code), a new debate.

[gallantca]

I don't think so. What they got right now is ideal for them. A control like they never had before. "Emergency State" let them rules pretty much how they want and having identity controls everytime you go in a bar or restaurant or movie theatre etc is a form of control we never saw of our lifetime. I know this is linked to what peoples call "conspiracy theory" and i don't want to advance myself too much in a slippery territory but i find very very disturbing that this thing is there for so long (not just for 1 month to control an outbreak for instance) without any official end date and everything. Maybe its something governements always wanted but couldn't justify before...


Honestly even since the start of Covid my taughts were always "no way peoples will accept this". Its been the case for masks everywhere, curfew and house restrictions. Yet i was baffled to see peoples mostly (in majority) accepted it. I know there is tons and tons of peoples who did not respect the measures entirely, and they were just not caught, but im astonished that not much peoples protested in the streets or yelled their disdain on social medias...

Maybe people are a lot smarter than you give them credit for
Maybe people see the entire world (no exceptions) stuck with the same problem and thing "maybe it's not just Legault"
Maybe people look at what we consider "knowledgeable" on the subject , the doctors, all 97.5% of them, saying the measures we are taking are correct.

 

[CLOUD 500]

Maybe people are a lot smarter than you give them credit for.
Maybe people look at what we consider "knowledgeable" on the subject , the doctors, all 97.5% of them, saying the measures we are taking are correct.

People are naive and dumb. See in history how they voted for dictators like Hitler and Stalin. Majority does not mean right, majority just means conformist.

Yes doctors being funded by the government usually will spread government propaganda. Reminds you of something? Maoism. All doctors who spoke against the government's agenda were silenced.

 

[gallantca]

People are naive and dumb. See in history how they voted for dictators like Hitler and Stalin. Majority does not mean right, majority just means conformist.

Yes doctors being funded by the government usually will spread government propaganda. Reminds you of something? Maoism. All doctors who spoke against the government's agenda were silenced.

So a doctor who believes a vaccine is unsafe is going to inject it in himself to avoid being silenced ? In the western hemisphere ?

Really ? You really believe the crap you are spewing ?

90% of the population is naive and dumb ? Scientists, doctors, academia are all wrong. But you, with your multiple degrees in science, know. best.

OK

 

[CLOUD 500]

So a doctor who believes a vaccine is unsafe is going to inject it in himself to avoid being silenced ? In the western hemisphere ?

Really ? You really believe the crap you are spewing ?

90% of the population is naive and dumb ? Scientists, doctors, academia are all wrong. But you, with your multiple degrees in science, know. best.

OK

You just do not get it. My problem is with authoritarianism not with the vaccine. There are doctors who were against the vaccines due to the side effects which are real. We do not hear from them because the government threathened to fire them. Ask any healthcare worker and they will confirm what I said. Side effects or not the choice to vaccinate should ultimately be the choice of the individual. The government over stated their role and are too involved in peoples personal lives. Those who are too scared can lock themselves up for life but the rest of us who are not will live our life and party and club the way we want.

Ppl are fleeing countries with oppresive governments to come here to have freedom. Freedom is one of the most important things to never take for granted. And yes ppl are stupid to believe all that crap the government is spewing. It is not government roles to lock ppl down in the name of protection. A caged bird is protected but is still locked up and cannot fly. I will choose freedom over security any day. But keep drinking the koolaid.

 

[gallantca]

You just do not get it. My problem is with authoritarianism not with the vaccine. There are doctors who were against the vaccines due to the side effects which are real. We do not hear from them because the government threathened to fire them. Ask any healthcare worker and they will confirm what I said. Side effects or not the choice to vaccinate should ultimately be the choice of the individual. The government over stated their role and are too involved in peoples personal lives. Those who are too scared can lock themselves up for life but the rest of us who are not will live our life and party and club the way we want.

Ppl are fleeing countries with oppresive governments to come here to have freedom. Freedom is one of the most important things to never take for granted. And yes ppl are stupid to believe all that crap the government is spewing. It is not government roles to lock ppl down in the name of protection. A caged bird is protected but is still locked up and cannot fly. I will choose freedom over security any day. But keep drinking the koolaid.

No I get it completely. You believe putting a traffic light on your street is an infringement of your freedom to not have to stop. You believe a pandemic is not a reason to limit your right to go to strip clubs. I get it.

What you "don't get" is that an overwhelming majority of people understand basic science and trust doctors. Not politicians, doctors. There is a very open and free mechanism for scientists to share information. Not knowing or understanding it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

On the topic of freedom, freedom is the choice to pick the people that run our democracy. It's a majority of people that elect and throw out the politicians that "get it" or don't. The people who "don't get it", like Jason Kenny, are thrown out of power. Unfortunately way more deaths than needed occurred. FFS, Alberta is going to go NDP because of that moron.

The 5% of marginal nut cakes that are into conspiracy theories, vaccines hoaxes and wild ass ideologies about Maoism and other crap are thankfully a small minority. You will always have Maxime Bernier and he will always end up the political loser he is.

You are entitled to your opinion, but the minute you call people naive and dumb for understanding basic science, you may want to look at what ideologies and beliefs are naive and dumb.

 

[Halloween Mike]

Maybe people are a lot smarter than you give them credit for
Maybe people see the entire world (no exceptions) stuck with the same problem and thing "maybe it's not just Legault"
Maybe people look at what we consider "knowledgeable" on the subject , the doctors, all 97.5% of them, saying the measures we are taking are correct.

There is a lot of issue with these statements. Some peoples know nothing of life and history. My mother is a perfect exemple. Her life is basically working her job in the village, watching The Bold and The Beautifull and other soaps that are on TVA when she finish working, calling her aunt on phone everyday talking about mundane stuff like what they found at the local "fripperie" (sorry don't know the english word for it) and ocasionally going to walmart to buy new cloaths. She see Montreal as a dangerous city like it was irak or something because she hear about murders on TV. So if Legault and the media says something, she believe it and exagerate it like anything else because she knows nothing. I don't want to sound mean, its my mom and i love her, but she is the exact exemple of a boomer living in a village that live the smallest mundane life you can imagine and being happy about it.

Other peoples just simply prefer control and directive because they do not want to think by themselves. Gives them a sense of security.

And yes the Virus is everywhere but the measures not been the same everywhere, some have been more extreme than here (and its VERY disturbing) while others were much more relax. One thing for sure is yes the virus is there, yes we have to aknowledge it, but it does not mean we have to live in fear all our lives. You just have to watch wrestling to realize that its been very different there, Arenas are packed and most peoples wear no mask. But the thing is there they have an health care system that can handle more. More expensive yes, but if having a free health care system mean it can't handle 200 peoples in ICU ... thats a screwed up thing.

As for your last sentence, as Cloud said, every doctors or nurses that wanna speak are getting silenced, they fear risking their job, right now you CAN'T go against the narrative without being seen as a pariah. Its not a 50-50 comparison but its similar to governements control in other countries that have been like that for years. If one rise up and get lynched (arrested, killed, whatever) nobody will want to do it and then it will be seen as peoples accept it without issues.

I mean, how the hell a country like North Korea can still be a thing? Im sure its not 80-90% of the population that agree with the regime and the leader. But as soon as somebody dare speak they get executed and said leader make sure the peoples have the less ways possible to do an uprising and there you go... NK is still NK.

 

[Francoquart]

No I get it completely. You believe putting a traffic light on your street is an infringement of your freedom to not have to stop. You believe a pandemic is not a reason to limit your right to go to strip clubs. I get it.

How is that similar to what he said? He is talking about your right to choose, freely, without any fear of any kind of reprisal or punishment, to take the Vaccine. You compare this to an law and order issue? Traffic light has nothing to do with Personal freedom, nor does seatbelts. It is amazing how much non related comparison is being made.
Comparing This COVID to Smallpox is one such example. Smallpox had a death rate of 30 percent, which is not just higher, but extremely higher, and Smallpox could be eradicated, so the Vaccine idea makes perfect sense. However, and those same doctors that you trust, all agrees that COVID will not be eradicated, and the only logical comparison is to the Flu/Cold, not the other diseases.
As much as you cannot eradicate flu, you cannot eradicate COVID 19. Unfortunately, the Virus has claimed its place in this existence, and we have to adapt. That is why, in the very beginning, before they were bashed, ridiculed, attacked in the media, called names, the list goes on, there was a logical, medical, scientific opinion that our best option is to develop herd immunity. The sanitary measure were used to flattened the curve, and protect the ones that were at risk. However, and magically, all of that logic just disappeared and pouf the vaccine has become the miracle we all need. Yet, funnily enough, the vaccinated can still get it, spread it, even dye from it, yes because "no vaccine is perfect", even though smallpox was eradicated (proof that right vaccines can be perfect). Not only has the media pushed that Idea, but the politicians, the ones we have elected, gave themselves war like decrees (it was supposed to be for 3 months, and yet it is still in effect), and punished those that Dared think differently, even though they have proven Shit with their methods. We are supposed to believe that it works even though you need to be protected by the Non vaccinated. I mean shouldn't it the other way around? Then, to keep it up, boosters, and now another vaccine for the variant, and. well, we are still in the first phases, god knows where all of this is going. Making a Vaccine that has yet to prove itself mandatory, is an attack on personal freedom, and that act must be countered if it continues. When people are divided on an issue that is considered extremely important, one group has no right to impose his will on the other even if they were the majority. This is called minority rights, and is part of the Democratic process. I personally believe that the individuals not at risk running to take the Vaccine, are irresponsible, as they are reducing our natural adaptation to this Virus, and are creating more Virus resistant and potentially more dangerous. Am I right, Am I wrong? Lets say that the current situation favors my opinion... But Hush....

 

[gallantca]

As for your last sentence, as Cloud said, every doctors or nurses that wanna speak are getting silenced, they fear risking their job, right now you CAN'T go against the narrative without being seen as a pariah. Its not a 50-50 comparison but its similar to governements control in other countries that have been like that for years. If one rise up and get lynched (arrested, killed, whatever) nobody will want to do it and then it will be seen as peoples accept it without issues.

No, doctors are free to present facts whatever direction the fact shows. A Dr is not allowed to scream out that vaccines cause harm without scientific data to back it. Nor can they scream out that vaccines cure cancer. It works both ways. Because they are in a position of authority they are obliged to follow a code of conduct that means providing scientific data with their statements.

 

[sene5hos]

How is that similar to what he said? He is talking about your right to choose, freely, without any fear of any kind of reprisal or punishment, to take the Vaccine. You compare this to an law and order issue? Traffic light has nothing to do with Personal freedom, nor does seatbelts. It is amazing how much non related comparison is being made.
Comparing This COVID to Smallpox is one such example. Smallpox had a death rate of 30 percent, which is not just higher, but extremely higher, and Smallpox could be eradicated, so the Vaccine idea makes perfect sense. However, and those same doctors that you trust, all agrees that COVID will not be eradicated, and the only logical comparison is to the Flu/Cold, not the other diseases.
As much as you cannot eradicate flu, you cannot eradicate COVID 19. Unfortunately, the Virus has claimed its place in this existence, and we have to adapt. That is why, in the very beginning, before they were bashed, ridiculed, attacked in the media, called names, the list goes on, there was a logical, medical, scientific opinion that our best option is to develop herd immunity. The sanitary measure were used to flattened the curve, and protect the ones that were at risk. However, and magically, all of that logic just disappeared and pouf the vaccine has become the miracle we all need. Yet, funnily enough, the vaccinated can still get it, spread it, even dye from it, yes because "no vaccine is perfect", even though smallpox was eradicated (proof that right vaccines can be perfect). Not only has the media pushed that Idea, but the politicians, the ones we have elected, gave themselves war like decrees (it was supposed to be for 3 months, and yet it is still in effect), and punished those that Dared think differently, even though they have proven Shit with their methods. We are supposed to believe that it works even though you need to be protected by the Non vaccinated. I mean shouldn't it the other way around? Then, to keep it up, boosters, and now another vaccine for the variant, and. well, we are still in the first phases, god knows where all of this is going. Making a Vaccine that has yet to prove itself mandatory, is an attack on personal freedom, and that act must be countered if it continues. When people are divided on an issue that is considered extremely important, one group has no right to impose his will on the other even if they were the majority. This is called minority rights, and is part of the Democratic process. I personally believe that the individuals not at risk running to take the Vaccine, are irresponsible, as they are reducing our natural adaptation to this Virus, and are creating more Virus resistant and potentially more dangerous. Am I right, Am I wrong? Lets say that the current situation favors my opinion... But Hush....

Yes, it's well written, and we would tend to eat from your hand, as the networks have done with you.
They have skewed your brain and your thinking.

In short, if I understand, we should not have administered the vaccines, we should have waited for a collective immunity to be created?

This was before the arrival of the Delta variant which is now 100% of new cases of COVID.

 

[Francoquart]

In short, if I understand, we should not have administered the vaccines, we should have waited for a collective immunity to be created?

This was before the arrival of the Delta variant which is now 100% of new cases of COVID.

Unlike you guys, I do not pretend to know 100% what is best (the pro vaccine arrogance). What I am trying to show is that there is good reasoning behind not taking the Vaccine. I believe this is one of those situation were a hybrid solution is best, not a one way thinking. Instead, not only do we see short sighted behavior form the government, but an attack on personal choice. It was first believed that the Vaccine should be given to those at risk, why did it become to everybody is still a mystery to me. Kids have no problems whatsoever with COVID (there will always be few exceptions), and most of the people affected by the virus did not feel much. It is evident now that the vaccine does not stop the spread of the Virus, so the only "valid" argument would be it can help reduce the complexities on the people that are at risk. Then why should it be administered to the majority that are not at risk?
The passport completely undermines the freedom to make an educated choice. Without the passport, most people will ask questions, try to figure the why's and how's. What the government is doing with this policy of forcing mass vaccination is a complete disregard and lack of respect to any other opinion. The division of opinions will always exist with or without the passport, that is true, but it has been radicalized now all thanks to those in power.
Non vaccinated are now feeling marginalized to the point they do not even want to consider the idea of vaccination. Not only that, but that idiot in power went to the point of calling it the wave of the Unvaccinated, and surprisingly had to admit later on that the Vaccine does not stop the spread. An apology would have been in order, but his arrogance is too big.
Whether the Vaccine works or not, in the case of the passport, I believe the matter is much deeper then few technicalities. The end justifies the mean is not an acceptable concept in our societies. The majority versus minority debate is also not acceptable, as history has showed multiple times that the minority can be right.

 

[Halloween Mike]

Couldn't has said it better than Franco.

 

[Mod21]

Everyone,

The issue of vaccine mandates is an important one, as it raises questions about which actions strike an appropriate balance between protecting public health while safeguarding individual freedoms, in the context of a pandemic-causing infectious disease about which there is still much to learn. This debate is not unique to Quebec or Canada, it is happening everywhere around the world.

The moderation encourages you to continue engaging in this debate without making it personal, without making it about what some specific members believe, and without characterizing members who have different views than yours negatively by using derogatory epithets.

Engaging in public debates in a respectful manner with people of differing opinions is at the heart of the democratic process. While this has been badly tested on many internet platforms, the moderation hopes it is still possible to do so on this Forum.

The moderation team has strived to let members express themselves on the questions surrounding Covid by intervening as little as possible, and by taking actions only when some members manifestly broke the Rules. However, if this debate is going to take generally a more uncivil and disrespectful tone, the moderation may have to intervene more forcefully, and may completely close such topics as vaccine mandates or other Covid-related topics to discussion.

This is an escort review board after all; not a public health one.

To all members, please take the moderation's call for calm and respect under consideration, while you continue with this important discussion.

Thanks for your collaboration.

 

[Fradi]

What people here don’t seem to understand is that you can be totally for the vaccine, which I am but at the same time want to maintain your freedom of choice.
Unfortunately we are finding out that it is not as government and yes even the doctors have stated originally as things have changed and evolved.
It is no longer the case that being fully immunized your chances of getting the virus or even being hospitalized are slim.
We see the daily count that it is getting to the point that the number of unvaccinated and vaccinated getting Covid are getting close in numbers, of course when you compare that almost 81% of the population is fully vaccinated it still shows your chances are much better with the vaccines and I have had all three shots including the booster. Now I have 3 different vaccines inside me lol with zero side affects to all of them.
It is however becoming much like the flu although much more fatal something we will have to learn to live with and probably tweaking vaccines booster shots for a long time to keep up with emerging variants.
I don‘t agree with mandatory vaccination, but trust that we will never allow governments in the free world to control us like China, North Korea, or the former Soviet block did.

 

[gallantca]

What people here don’t seem to understand is that you can be totally for the vaccine, which I am but at the same time want to maintain your freedom of choice.
Unfortunately we are finding out that it is not as government and yes even the doctors have stated originally as things have changed and evolved.
It is no longer the case that being fully immunized your chances of getting the virus or even being hospitalized are slim.
We see the daily count that it is getting to the point that the number of unvaccinated and vaccinated getting Covid are getting close in numbers, of course when you compare that almost 81% of the population is fully vaccinated it still shows your chances are much better with the vaccines and I have had all three shots including the booster. Now I have 3 different vaccines inside me lol with zero side affects to all of them.
It is however becoming much like the flu although much more fatal something we will have to learn to live with and probably tweaking vaccines booster shots for a long time to keep up with emerging variants.
I don‘t agree with mandatory vaccination, but trust that we will never allow governments in the free world to control us like China, North Korea, or the former Soviet block did.

Ontario published all it's numbers. The number of people vaccinated in Ontario is about 4 vaccinated to 1 unvaccinated. (Eligible people)

On a daily basis, half the cases are in the vaccinated, half in the unvaccinated. 4 Times more people = same number of cases.
This means you have 4x more chance of catching Covid and showing symptoms.

Current in hospitals there are 136 people. 35% are vaccinated and 65% unvaccinated. 4x less people represent twice the number of hospitalized.
This means you 8x the probability of ending up in hospital if unvaccinated

Current in ICU there are 81 people. 19 vaccinated, 62 unvaccinated. 23% are vaccinated, 77% unvaccinated.
This means you have a 12x the probability of ending up in ICU if unvaccinated.

What would happen if more people followed the anti-vax philosophy.

Drop the vaccination rate from 80% eligible to 60%. That 62 unvaccinated in ICU doubles to 124, that 19 vaccinated drops to 14. You now have 138 in ICU. An increase of 70%.

Drop vaccinations by 20% and load on the health care system goes up 70%. These are crude numbers, the increases would actually be greater.

If this is about protecting the healthcare system, those numbers speak for themselves. The unvaccinated are putting a disproportional burden on the healthcare system and putting the collectivity at greater risk. This is their right, the collectivity has the right to minimize that burden on society.

Anyone that says that vaccines don't work may want to prove that with fact.

Again, the unvaccinated are putting a disproportional burden on the health care system despite having stricter sanitary restrictions. Remove the sanitary restrictions and the problem is even worse.

Have a debate of individual rights vs rights of the collectivity if you want but do it with facts and stop the BS that vaccines don't work. (Not you Fradi, the others that have stated vaccines have failed)

 

[Fradi]

Have a debate of individual rights vs rights of the collectivity if you want but do it with facts and stop the BS that vaccines don't work. (Not you Fradi, the others that have stated vaccines have failed)

Unfortunately this is a situation of individual rights vs collective rights.
Yes vaccines work but not nearly as affectively as they did in the beginning, the new variants like the Delta have significantly changed things, this is undeniable and who knows what this new variant will do and future ones to come, so it does not look like this debate is likely to stop.
I have seen and my parents have lived what it is like to be controlled by the government and it is much worse than the threat of this particular virus, it affects everyone not just 2-4%.
My choice obviously is the vaccine but I do not believe that mandatory vaccination should be imposed on everyone across the board, and to be honest I am not sure I would want my grandchildren who are under 5 vaccinated until they are of age as there the side effects maybe just as dangerous as not being vaccinated given the low risk of children being affected seriously.
There are other measures also that are being imposed collectively that are showing to be of little use or value like travel bans and testing at boarders. By the time they impose these measures it is way too late and the new variant has already spread and taken hold so it is just delaying it by maybe a month or two nothing else, which does not justify at least in my mind all the money and trouble it is causing everyone, but it does make politicians feel important, gives them a good reputation for the next election.
If vaccination is not enough to allow free travel around the world testing will certainly not do more than delay the inevitable by a month or two. This again proves how things have changed and vaccination is not the total fix or answer for now that we all hoped for and it looks like we will be living with this virus and it’s variants for a long time to come.

 

[gallantca]

Unfortunately this is a situation of individual rights vs collective rights.
Yes vaccines work but not nearly as affectively as they did in the beginning, the new variants like the Delta have significantly changed things, this is undeniable and who knows what this new variant will do and future ones to come, so it does not look like this debate is likely to stop.
I have seen and my parents have lived what it is like to be controlled by the government and it is much worse than the threat of this particular virus, it affects everyone not just 2-4%.
My choice obviously is the vaccine but I do not believe that mandatory vaccination should be imposed on everyone across the board, and to be honest I am not sure I would want my grandchildren who are under 5 vaccinated until they are of age as there the side effects maybe just as dangerous as not being vaccinated given the low risk of children being affected seriously.
There are other measures also that are being imposed collectively that are showing to be of little use or value like travel bans and testing at boarders. By the time they impose these measures it is way too late and the new variant has already spread and taken hold so it is just delaying it by maybe a month or two nothing else, which does not justify at least in my mind all the money and trouble it is causing everyone, but it does make politicians feel important, gives them a good reputation for the next election.
If vaccination is not enough to allow free travel around the world testing will certainly not do more than delay the inevitable by a month or two. This again proves how things have changed and vaccination is not the total fix or answer for now that we all hoped for and it looks like we will be living with this virus and it’s variants for a long time to come.

I agree with a lot of what you wrote. I 100% agree it's collective vs individual rights and we have mechanisms to deal with this, ie the courts.

As far as vaccines not being as effective as the beginning, I think they were overstated at the beginning, but they are still pretty damn good in reducing severe disease by greater than 10x.

For vaccinating children, I would be torn if I had grand children. As a parent I would trust my paediatrician. I would balance the risk of the child with the risk of his/her grandparent and with the need of the child to be with his/her grandparent. It's not simple.

I am completely against forcing a person to be vaccinated. There are some professions like healthcare where I see the need. Federal civil servants, I am not sure I get it. Mandatory vaccination for civil servants is going to court. This will be interesting. As long as civil servants are working from home, I do not understand why vaccination could be mandatory. Mandatory vaccination in a workplace is another story that the courts will probably have to decide on.

Travel bans, I disagree with. Testing at borders I agree with conditions. I believe they should test until they see that positivity rates at borders are no greater than the general population. We have fell very short on the intelligent use of testing. I said months ago, testing, even if frequent should be a way to maintain a valid vaccine passport,.

Proof of previous infection should also give a valid vaccine passport. Others countries have done this.

 

[Fradi]

I wouldn’t be apposed to a fully vaccinated person to have a rapid test administered at airports/borders paid by the local government with results available within 15 minutes. I think most would be more than willing and it would be a small price to pay for the tourist dollar.
This nonsense of PCR tests costing $300 and sometimes taking days for results is idiotic and counter productive to all travel and will destroy many economies throughout the world that heavily rely on tourists.
Personally I would want all testing to be removed for travellers who are fully vaccinated and have a government issued valid Covid passport, otherwise what is the point of it and whether you test or not by the time any variant is identified it is already too late to stop it spreading to different parts of the world so you either believe in the vaccines that they will stop severe sickness and death or you don’t.
Closing borders in todays world just doesn’t do anything when it comes to contagious diseases as by the time one is identified it is already way too late. So far we have not been successful in stoping the spread of any variants no matter how many controls we have put in place including vaccines. The best we are able to do is reduce hospitalization and death which in itself is a fabulous achievement in such a short time.

 

[minutemenX]

There is always price to pay for freedom and we should be ready to pay to protect people rights to choose to be vaccinated or not.

 

[bonerland citizen]

Big question is if our Vax fun pass is now based on a failed vaccine. A vaccine that most likely induced resistant virus mutations that nul and void the whole functionality of the vax fun pass??!!
Planned obsolescence?

 

[CLOUD 500]

Big question is if our Vax fun pass is now based on a failed vaccine. A vaccine that most likely induced resistant virus mutations that nul and void the whole functionality of the vax fun pass??!!
Planned obsolescence?

On their agenda a plan is in the works to change the definition of fully vaccinated to 3 doses so that means also for vaccine passports. Ontario will present the new restrictions today at 3:30pm, all other provinces will follow. So more of the same thing that is not working as promised. Weird.