I can see how SPs and MPs would get nervous if there is too much talk on the net about them. Is it time to get discrete when we do reviews?
With C-36 looming, can we put SPs and/or MPs out of business if we are not discrete?
- Thread starter Mike Nelson
- Start date
Why would SP's or MP's be nervous?
It would be the customers and the agencies employing the customers who will be nervous.
This law targets the Demand side of the equation.
It would be the customers and the agencies employing the customers who will be nervous.
This law targets the Demand side of the equation.
Well looks like the encounters would be kept indoors more so now once the bill goes through. Dinner dates would be out of the question for some since the coupling would look out of place. This would also affect restaurants/bars and other social establishments.
It's counter-intuitive, but providers have more to fear from the police. If they draw attention, police can scare away their customers and drive them out of business. Police have the right to go to their place and intimidate them in the pretense of making sure they are not trafficked. Tracking down clients is harder and they are more difficult to manipulate since they have rights as a suspect. SP have no rights, neither as a victim or a suspect.
I agree with Patron. Plus, the more it looks like a real date, the less likely it is to gain police attention. Dinner dates could become de rigueur. Perverts bringing their victims to fancy restaurants does not fit the public's image of human traficking.
You are being totally naive to make a statement that there are so few arrests in the US. Tell that to the 104 Johns arrested on Long Island, NY. Some were doctors. Sorry, but certain localities target both SP's and customers.
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/104-johns-nabbed-nassau-county-pay-sex-article-1.1361717
As far as Montreal goes, I bet you see more hotels looking out for guys who receive girls into their hotel rooms. The police may pay a visit only to scare the alleged John from receiving girls. Go ahead and say police have better things to do, but there are slow times in all municipalities and there are areas where it is slow.
I don't think there will be on going investigates and endless stings, because of this law, but some local police chiefs and mayors will agree with the law and target johns and agencies just to support what they think is right with this law (because they think that way).
You are correct that in some areas, mostly larger cities, prostitution goes untouched for long periods of time with periodic stings and targeting. But there are areas in which there is very little crime to begin with and if any damn if any prostitutes or johns enter their terrain. I can name several areas that I know of in the East Coast that are relentless against prostitution. You see reports in these areas often.
There is no way that you know how hotels and LE in Montreal will react to the new law.
You have to realize it is a major shift in legality on prostitution in Canada. Currently, sex is legal to purchase in a "private" outcall setting. If the law passes the Senate, sex will be illegal to purchase sex regardless of where you are - in your private house or hotel. Because the law will be brand new, it is very possible that hotels, neighbors, etc. will react accordingly, and complain to LE. Then LE could at least harass persons suspected of inviting known or suspected prostitutes into their hotel room or private residence.
Remember, previously the police would laugh off or could not respond to a complaint of a person receiving a prostitute into their hotel room or private residence. After the law changes, the police can, and since it is brand new, I bet you that they over react in the beginning. Laws outlawing prostitution in the US are just over 100 years old. It has taken time and history for each municipality to act accordingly. This will be brand new in Canada. There is no way for you to predict how the local LE will react to complaints and how many complaints there will be.
Maybe it is only us old geezers paying for it, The kids of the computer generation consider a HJ as a handshak, and a BJ as a kiss.
The law may be new, but money remains the same. Hotels that are now SP friendly are not going to just give up half their income for the pleasure of enforcing a new morality law. Especially since the law is so controversial. Some Hotels might, in backward places where they will have lot of pressure from population, but not in big cities like Montreal.
Luckily in our system of law you are innocent until proven guilty by a Court of law .
It is not what law enforcement believes, its what they can prove ,not only prove the crime ,but must also prove who committed that crime ,
Before being a SP she is a human and entitle to all the rights the Charter of Rights provides, no pre labeling exist .
A victim has privilege or right not complain about a crime ,if he is not a plaintiff the Police will not be able to go in is house without a warrant or search is things .
For a suspect ,well he has the right to remain silent and the right to consult a attorney a many other rights .
Hope everyone do understand their rights
Good Luck
Cheers
Booker
I'm not sure about that. The means of communication are more diversified and transparent. It's easier to notice sex work because of Internet. However, I see no reason for the demand to have increased just because more means are available. Sex for free is way more available today then anytime before, especially since the sexual revolution of the fifties and sixties. Also, financial opportunities for women have largely improved with education, shrinking the supply pool. However, recruitment has probably changed over the years, drawing in a more diversified class of women. My impression is that there was a decrease in demand at least in the in the past 50 years (poll comparisons over the years tend to confirm that in France and in USA), and a lesser decrease of supply, leading to a general decrease in price (The Economist published some interesting stats on that a few month ago). The commercial sex market may be larger today, but I think this is explained only by population growth.
Just like Harper lies and disregards constitutional rights, so could the police if they want. In principle we are all equal, but we know very well profiling and police misconduct happens.
But the points is that SP are neither victims nor accused according to this law. When a crime is committed, both victims and accused are entitled to special rights. For instance you have the right not to incriminate yourself and no one can force you to testify in court. If you can't afford a lawyer you get one free. SP in the new law have no status. They will be required to ''help the police in their investigation'' or face obstruction of justice charges.
Hello Siocnarf
Obviously the Police does lie to achieve their investigations .
But in many cases you gain the upper hand because of Police misconduct If they acquire illegal proof ,its a reason to have it thrown out .
Obstruction of justice ,is like anything else it must be proven ,theories and practice ,is a very different ball game ,play ball!
http://www.duhaime.org/LegalResources/CriminalLaw/LawArticle-117/Obstruction-of-Justice.aspx
Presumed innocent until proven guilty ,the new law has many flaws
Its more how the courts will react to a corrupted thinking ,
Cheers
Booker
It's true that actual obstruction of justice is unlikely, but that's a threat they can make. If they want police can do pretty much anything to mess up an SP's life under the excuse of making sure she's not trafficked. She opens the door to greet a would-be client and before she knows it she has 4 policemen in her appartment who ''just want to talk to her''. Is there any other job where this would be acceptable police behaviour? If she refuses to cooperate they can talk to her parents, neighbors, colleagues at regular jobs, etc. Things that they could not do to any citizen becomes acceptable because they can say that in good faith they were checking to make sure she was not trafficked.
Police make threats thats the way they work,The protection any citizens has is understanding the law and is rights .
Is there any other job where it would be acceptable Police behavior
Many others actually but not legitimate jobs .Like any other illegitimate jobs escorting is vulnerable to Police intimidation tactics ,
Talk to cigarettes traffickers or alcohol ,the product are legal only if the government have there share of taxes
In crime their is a code of silence ,there is a reason why ,
Police lie to achieve their goals ,if you do not talk with them you have better chances of getting off .
But every case is different .
Presumption of innocence is still valid ,Establish a crime was committed and who committed the crime remains a necessity
To be aware of your rights in any situation is vital .
Because law enforcement cheats and lie
Good Luck
Regards
Booker
Is there any other job where it would be acceptable Police behavior
Many others actually but not legitimate jobs .Like any other illegitimate jobs escorting is vulnerable to Police intimidation tactics ,
Talk to cigarettes traffickers or alcohol ,the product are legal only if the government have there share of taxes
In crime their is a code of silence ,there is a reason why ,
Police lie to achieve their goals ,if you do not talk with them you have better chances of getting off .
But every case is different .
Presumption of innocence is still valid ,Establish a crime was committed and who committed the crime remains a necessity
To be aware of your rights in any situation is vital .
Because law enforcement cheats and lie
Good Luck
Regards
Booker
Hey all,
Despite women still facing some resistance in upper echelon jobs there are a lot more opportunities and choices overall in so-called regular jobs. But I wonder about how more openness about the sex industry has affected choices at the escort level and thus affected numbers of women in the industry even with drawbacks like C36?
Agreed. There's the way the justice system would work when used with all the legalities, and the way it can be exploited to intimidate and coerce women or men with threats to cause legal issues or impose on personal lives or something else the person cares about. People in fear are much less likely to hold their legal ground based on their rights. Unfortunately the police know how to play their hand pretty well and it will take some savvy and support for an accused person to stay cool and get through these police tactics. Where it will get tough for the LE is when they overplay their position and do something to become a public embarrassment of abuse that creates a big legal push back.
Merlot
Despite women still facing some resistance in upper echelon jobs there are a lot more opportunities and choices overall in so-called regular jobs. But I wonder about how more openness about the sex industry has affected choices at the escort level and thus affected numbers of women in the industry even with drawbacks like C36?
Agreed. There's the way the justice system would work when used with all the legalities, and the way it can be exploited to intimidate and coerce women or men with threats to cause legal issues or impose on personal lives or something else the person cares about. People in fear are much less likely to hold their legal ground based on their rights. Unfortunately the police know how to play their hand pretty well and it will take some savvy and support for an accused person to stay cool and get through these police tactics. Where it will get tough for the LE is when they overplay their position and do something to become a public embarrassment of abuse that creates a big legal push back.
Merlot
For education:
More woman going to college=more women needing to pay tuitions.
More people getting degrees=more competition for jobs and less attractive prospects, so sex work can remain a good job after graduation.
I think women had more financial security 50 years ago. Being a housewife had an almost 100% employment rate, and that was usually a job for life. That was often a crappy job, but a secure one.
Hello
Being subject to a Police investigation is never a fun party ,however each person must be aware of the consequences of is acts !
You cannot make omelette's without cracking some eggs !:lol:
If you are willing to commit the crime ,be ready to do the time !
Having been a subject to different police investigation I know first hand what they do .
In one case I was involve over 200 charges 5 different counts where brought against me each carrying a 14 years maximum sentence .The promise of the Police it was a slam dunk there was no way I was getting out of this ,the Police visited all my family and friends the RCMP even had a bench warrant issued against me with false pretense ,they told the judge they did not know where to find me and I lived at the same place that I was originally arrested at ,2 court dates where schedule at same time one in Montreal Court house the other one in Laval Court house ,I was at the schedule court date in Montreal for my preliminary hearing ,I was not aware of the Laval one until they came and arrested me I was accompanied by one of my Criminal defense lawyer so our strategy use our right to decline the preliminary hearing in Montreal we reported ourselves to judge in Laval so he would lift the breach of bail ,Police do lie the only protection we have is to be aware of our rights in this case , ,the charges where finally dropped after 6 years of negotiations with the crown and many $$$$$$.
It did happen to some of my friends too I have many weird friends !:lol:
Living through a Police investigation is hell and it does fuck up your lives and you have no guaranty that if you collaborate they will not intimidate you anyways ,anything you say can be held against you .
Know your rights
Good Luck
Warmest Regards
Booker
Being subject to a Police investigation is never a fun party ,however each person must be aware of the consequences of is acts !
You cannot make omelette's without cracking some eggs !:lol:
If you are willing to commit the crime ,be ready to do the time !
Having been a subject to different police investigation I know first hand what they do .
In one case I was involve over 200 charges 5 different counts where brought against me each carrying a 14 years maximum sentence .The promise of the Police it was a slam dunk there was no way I was getting out of this ,the Police visited all my family and friends the RCMP even had a bench warrant issued against me with false pretense ,they told the judge they did not know where to find me and I lived at the same place that I was originally arrested at ,2 court dates where schedule at same time one in Montreal Court house the other one in Laval Court house ,I was at the schedule court date in Montreal for my preliminary hearing ,I was not aware of the Laval one until they came and arrested me I was accompanied by one of my Criminal defense lawyer so our strategy use our right to decline the preliminary hearing in Montreal we reported ourselves to judge in Laval so he would lift the breach of bail ,Police do lie the only protection we have is to be aware of our rights in this case , ,the charges where finally dropped after 6 years of negotiations with the crown and many $$$$$$.
It did happen to some of my friends too I have many weird friends !:lol:
Living through a Police investigation is hell and it does fuck up your lives and you have no guaranty that if you collaborate they will not intimidate you anyways ,anything you say can be held against you .
Know your rights
Good Luck
Warmest Regards
Booker
Gee, I thought that the SP's are victims in C-36. Didn't they write that in the preamble of the law?
I have never heard in any country (except for Iran) where a victim, like a victim of rape or domestic violence will face obstruction of justice charges, E.G. RAY RICE's WIFE.
Do you read what you write before you post it. Just wondering.
They are not victims of the crime. Women in general and prostitutes in particular are ''victimized'' in a general sort of way by this activity. That's what they say in the preamble, but not in the actual law. Like Alan Young said, you have to compare the preamble with the words of the law, and they don't match at all.
This is to me the worst about this model: sex workers are assumed to be victims but they are not extended the actual status of victim according to this law. Even worse, the law increases the overall danger of their job. And somehow they want us to believe that this is constitutional. THey think that by calling them victims, it's now OK to make their situation worse in order to ''rescue'' them. It's like making a law to eliminate rape that would increase danger for rape victims and where the victim could even be arrested herself if the crime happens near a school.
There is a good reason for that. By not giving them a real victim status they can continue to treat them like dirt.
This is to me the worst about this model: sex workers are assumed to be victims but they are not extended the actual status of victim according to this law. Even worse, the law increases the overall danger of their job. And somehow they want us to believe that this is constitutional. THey think that by calling them victims, it's now OK to make their situation worse in order to ''rescue'' them. It's like making a law to eliminate rape that would increase danger for rape victims and where the victim could even be arrested herself if the crime happens near a school.
There is a good reason for that. By not giving them a real victim status they can continue to treat them like dirt.
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