With C-36 looming, can we put SPs and/or MPs out of business if we are not discrete?

[BookerL]

Really? Where does it say in C-36 that individuals and institutions can ignore law enforcement if they ask or tell the establishment that they are investigating or staking out the place? I think you are entering fantasyland, Siocnarf.

Hi all
If they are staking out the hotel LE will not likely tell the hotel in case the girls or agencies have collaborators in admin .
But each case is different .
In many cases warrants are required .
Admin wil refer the case to there lawyers that is the best step .
It did happen to me once recently that the police came and ask infos about on of my tenants ,my first answer was here the number of my lawyer call him .They told me they would get a warrant it never came .Nothing came out of it !



Good Luck all



Warmest Regards



Booker

 

[Siocnarf]

Really? Where does it say in C-36 that individuals and institutions can ignore law enforcement if they ask or tell the establishment that they are investigating or staking out the place? I think you are entering fantasyland, Siocnarf.

We are not talking about LE investigating a specific case. If they ask the hotel to be on the lookout for a specific known criminal or a specific missing person that is one thing. To tell hotels to pry into the private lives of each and every of their clients, to spy on them just to collect evidence, that would be unacceptable. And the police have no leverage to do that because hotels will not be breaking any law themselves. They cannot force the hotels to take exceptional measures to identify potential clients.

But that kind of thing does not happen in the real world, and if if did it would only happen for one night before the mayor is informed and he has a talk with the police chief.

Yes and even more so since the new law is very contentious and debatable. This is something they will have to enforce carefully. They can't just play cowboy like they sometime do in other countries, because this is a challenge waiting to happen and no one will want to be the cause of that.

 

[daydreamer41]

Haven't you ever read stories about law enforcement being told to back off, either by a judge or local elected officials, when they hang out in the parking lots and nearby side streets of certain bars and restaurants late at night trying to maximize
DUI arrests?

No, never. Your undying belief that LE is so impotent and restricted is fantasy.

There have been countless such situations in the U.S. Sometimes it hinges on the police violating the property laws of the owner, but more often it is handled from a practical perspective of someone high up in the government calling off an aggressive police force that argues that it is conducting smart policing, but is told that it is interfering with the free commerce that funds the police department. The bar/restaurant has to call the elected officials sometimes to get this to happen.

Can you point me to news accounts of this? There isn't a lot of property rights when crimes are involved.

Strictly speaking, yes, the police can hang out in the lobby of a hotel, interview couples with mismatched age differentials entering the hotel to try to get admissions of crime, stand by the elevator and cause the hotel to match the entrants to the guest list, etc., and inform the hotel that it cannot interfere with a police operation. But that kind of thing does not happen in the real world, and if if did it would only happen for one night before the mayor is informed and he has a talk with the police chief.

Can you answer this question. If there was a murder inside a hotel, could the owner go to the mayor of the city and say, you can't come into my hotel and investigate?

The answer will tell you how naive your statements are.

 

[Siocnarf]

There isn't a lot of property rights when crimes are involved.

We are not talking about an ongoing investigation of a crime that has occurred. We are talking about police on the look-out simply for a possible crime that may or may not happen. I'm pretty sure police could not park on my lawn to set a speed trap without my approval. But they could come on my lawn to investigate a dead body there.

Can you answer this question. If there was a murder inside a hotel, could the owner go to the mayor of the city and say, you can't come into my hotel and investigate?

The answer will tell you how naive your statements are.

Once again this is really not the kind of scenario we are talking about. For example if police was investigating an agency and that agency was using an hotel then yes LE would go to the manager and ask for cooperation in their investigation of those specific suspects under investigations. Just forcing the manager to keep tabs on everyone that looks like a potential client/hooker couple would be a breach of privacy that would not stand in court. You seem to think we are in a police state where they can just order anyone to spy on everyone for them.

In the US or other countries they can do that with hotels, because hotels can be prosecuted under pimping laws. Not so with C-36.

 

[lgna69xxx]

Some of you guys are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to worried about this, if you know reliable agencies and owners and Indy's you will be fine at first and in tme it will get better. Just take a wait and see approach for the first few months and see how things are enforced where it comes to new agency and Indy's that you do not know of. You are all gonna stress yourselves into a stroke or heart attack, Just use common sense GEESH!

 

[Siocnarf]

Incidently, some years ago I was at a little strip club in Massachusetts and they had a police officer on duty inside. I don't know what the owner did to deserve that special treatment, but that was certainly a turn off (and it was not a pretty female police, but an old fat guy. They could at least have sent someone would would not be an eyesore)

 

[Siocnarf]

http://www.adn.com/article/20120108/police-target-bar-drunks-and-employees-who-serve-them

So it's actually a crime to be drunk in a bar in Alaska?? And there is no actual criteria for what ''drunk'' means? It sounds a lot like C-36 and ''sexual service''...

 

[daydreamer41]

We are not talking about LE investigating a specific case. If they ask the hotel to be on the lookout for a specific known criminal or a specific missing person that is one thing. To tell hotels to pry into the private lives of each and every of their clients, to spy on them just to collect evidence, that would be unacceptable. And the police have no leverage to do that because hotels will not be breaking any law themselves. They cannot force the hotels to take exceptional measures to identify potential clients.

I have had family members and friends in LE and they all told me that investigations usually started with complaints from citizens. Sometimes, it takes several complaints from many persons about a location or situation. Sometimes, the nature of the complaint is serious, and it only takes one complaint.

So, I think in this situation, in a hotel, it will take many complaints over a period of time from many guests staying at the hotel. Then LE would go in and monitor the situation.

That being said, I have read in a US newspaper or newspaper website of investigations by a police departments in areas where they are heavily against prostitution where the detectives would stay out in the parking lot and monitor who goes in and who goes out.

I remember one account in Massachusetts, which is supposedly very anti-prostitution in some areas, where LE would corner guys who were in the hotel for an hour or less. They would say to them, we know why you were in there. You were seeing a young woman who is a known prostitute. We have video of you going into her room. They were trying to get guys to confess. They read some their Miranda rights even though they really didn't have much on them. I imagine the smart ones kept quiet, asked for a lawyer, and the scared ones waived their rights and confessed. But who is to say they LE can't try to get confessions from guys that way?

Yes and even more so since the new law is very contentious and debatable. This is something they will have to enforce carefully. They can't just play cowboy like they sometime do in other countries, because this is a challenge waiting to happen and no one will want to be the cause of that.

You think the current government won't pass this law because there are challenges waiting for them? I don't think so. So why would they wait to enforce it? And how would they be careful? I am not sure what you mean by that. They are going to want to catch guys in the act. A guy going to a hotel room, or inviting girls to his hotel room, or picking a girl up on the street in C-36 terms in all the same. In fact, I would think they would want to catch a guy at a hotel as the same as the street to show they are not picking on any one type of prostitution.

 

[Siocnarf]

You think the current government won't pass this law because there are challenges waiting for them? I don't think so. So why would they wait to enforce it?

The people voting the law are the federal government. The people enforcing the law are province and local LE. The federal government is talking out of their ass and have no control on provincial enforcement. The feds know very well this will be destroyed in court. It's just a way to gain time before election. They don't care if it's enforced or not. They don't care if it's a fiasco in court because by then it will be 10 years down the road and someone else's problem.

The police are grounded in reality and have to address the current situations in their localities and they have to be careful for the immediate effects of their actions. Unlike politicians, LE are accountable for the results of their actions.

Montreal police have already made their plan for 2014-2016 and it does not include going after consensual activities. The provincial prosecutors also know this law is going to be challenge. Every time they charge someone, lawyers will say they are going to challenge the law and the crown will drop the charges. They know it's impossible to enforce to any significant extent.

In Canada prostitution laws are extremely minor and the least enforced laws ever. This will not change.

That's not to mean the police will do nothing. Whenever there are some serious disturbance of a neighborhood they will do what they can to solve the problems. And when there are trafficked or underage people they will also seriously investigate. So I predict it will remain like in the past years until a future decision.

 

[daydreamer41]

The people voting the law are the federal government. The people enforcing the law are province and local LE. The federal government is talking out of their ass and have no control on provincial enforcement. The feds know very well this will be destroyed in court. It's just a way to gain time before election. They don't care if it's enforced or not.

You may be correct in your assessment. However, since the Federal government runs the borders and I am a US citizen, I don't know if I will get more scrutiny when visiting because I am a single male. For myself, I am going to take a wait and see approach, and then I will make an assessment of the situation. Going to Canada is no longer an advantage since it is now just as illegal in Canada as the US. I agree with you that the new law is way too contentious. It will likely be declared unconstitutional a year or two down the road. It does make women choosing this profession to be less secure, since although it is still legal for them to do, their customers and support network becomes illegal, and they are forced to go it alone, a major complaint in the Bedford decision.

 

[Siocnarf]

However, since the Federal government runs the borders and I am a US citizen, I don't know if I will get more scrutiny when visiting because I am a single male.

I don't expect they would be more suspicious of you at the border. But since you are a foreigner, the consequences of being arrested could be more complicated if it happened. However many people go to Thailand for sex and prostitution there is also 100% illegal. I feel confident for the future, but of course a little extra caution is advisable in the coming year. Giving my phone number didn't bother me before, even to someone unreviewed, but I will most likely stick to regulars in the near future.

So don't kid yourself that a cool, open-minded city cannot go 180 degrees the other direction. I pray that never happens to Montreal.

Fortunately Montreal is much larger and has therefore a lot more inertia.