World Charter For Prostitute's Rights

[Possum Trot]

Saw the other thread and the only viable contribution was by the poster who questionned if prostitutes were going to assume certain responsibilities that are part of any profession. Seems that this is not going to happen so everything moves back to square one. Benefits without responsibilities does not get much support from other people and until this changes the charter will not be taken very seriously even though it is noble in intent.

As for changes. The internet has changed prostitution immensely. Evidenced by this board. The internet also raises other issues that are of concern to prostitutes - privacy issues and copyright issues. Both touch on the diffusion of personal images and information which is not directly raised in the charter.

Finally you still have the unresolved issue of whether prostitutes are workers who unionize or professionals who form associations that in effect police themselves by accepting responsibilities and setting standards, something which unionized workers do not.

I think you are taking this way beyond what was intended with talk of standards, unions and associations. What you call benefits in this charter is just decriminalizing and normalizing the activity of prostitution. I didn't see anything in there significantly beyond asking for the rights already afforded anyone engaged in a western civilization in any legal pusuit to earn a living.

While unions and associations may eventually be a natural evolution, discussing would seem entirely premature until such time as the activity is decriminalized. Aside from the specific advocay demands, which can be ignored I think, most of the rest is covered by existing Employment Standards acts in most western countries

 

[Lilly Lombard]

I think you are taking this way beyond what was intended with talk of standards, unions and associations. What you call benefits in this charter is just decriminalizing and normalizing the activity of prostitution. I didn't see anything in there significantly beyond asking for the rights already afforded anyone engaged in a western civilization in any legal pusuit to earn a living.

While unions and associations may eventually be a natural evolution, discussing would seem entirely premature until such time as the activity is decriminalized. Aside from the specific advocay demands, which can be ignored I think, most of the rest is covered by existing Employment Standards acts in most western countries

You are stealing the words out of my mind. (obviously, you phrased it better! )

 

[eastender]

Very True

In countries where access to education and various job opportunities are declined or the privilege of a rare few, adding privileges to sexworkers may confine women to this job even more.

Very true. In fact in such countries the women are drawn to the trade and such benefits would prove be a more powerful incentive.

 

[eastender]

Unsupported Assumptions

I think you are taking this way beyond what was intended with talk of standards, unions and associations. What you call benefits in this charter is just decriminalizing and normalizing the activity of prostitution. I didn't see anything in there significantly beyond asking for the rights already afforded anyone engaged in a western civilization in any legal pusuit to earn a living.

While unions and associations may eventually be a natural evolution, discussing would seem entirely premature until such time as the activity is decriminalized. Aside from the specific advocay demands, which can be ignored I think, most of the rest is covered by existing Employment Standards acts in most western countries

You are working from the assumption that decriminalizing is the appropriate alternative. Not sold.

Mainstreamng is a viable alternative as evidenced by the change in attitudes towards professional sports and entertainment professionals at the start of the twentieth century. Previously profesional athletes and entertainers were viewed as scoundrels who provided no tangible benefits to society. Today we see threads about them being overpaid with tangible benefits to society from the tax base they create and monies they generate.

The key element missing from the debate is very basic. The sex trade workers have to understand that there is an underlying issue when asking for benefits or more precisely "considerations".

The old adage, "To get you have to give" comes to mind. If you want the various social benefits then you have to contribute to the pot. If you want the privilege of working the streets then you have to do so in a fashion that does not impact negatively on housing values or create additional safety,health and clean-up costs and issues. Do so in a fashion that raises housing values and reduces related costs and you might be welcome.

While the charter is noble it still has to benefit society as a whole in a tangible fashion. This will not happen until the sex trade workers grasp the giving part of the relationship.

 

[Lilly Lombard]

While the charter is noble it still has to benefit society as a whole in a tangible fashion. This will not happen until the sex trade workers grasp the giving part of the relationship.

So are you assuming that all sex workers do not understand that part?

As for having more women chosing to be sex workers (on their own will and terms I have to specify! ) what is so wrong and scary about women who feel empowered and emancipated with only their bodies for tool?? Athletes have their bodies for tool...

I guess it's'time some people stop seeing sex as something wrong and dirty. Guilty sex is not fun and not nearly as satisfying!

 

[eastender]

Waiting for Evidence

So are you assuming that all sex workers do not understand that part?

As for having more women chosing to be sex workers (on their own will and terms I have to specify! ) what is so wrong and scary about women who feel empowered and emancipated with only their bodies for tool?? Athletes have their bodies for tool...

I guess it's'time some people stop seeing sex as something wrong and dirty. Guilty sex is not fun and not nearly as satisfying!

Not making any assumptions just waiting for evidence which you should provide.

Fonda Peters organized the "Tits fo Tots" Strip-a-thon in the late 1970's/early 1980's but she was an entertainer according to your previous definition.

Provide present day examples of sex workers giving back to society. Athletes do it regularly. List of foundations set-up by NHL players is readily available from the NHLPA, the Alouettes are very present in the community.

 

[Lilly Lombard]

Not making any assumptions just waiting for evidence which you should provide.

Fonda Peters organized the "Tits fo Tots" Strip-a-thon in the late 1970's/early 1980's but she was an entertainer according to your previous definition.

Provide present day examples of sex workers giving back to society. Athletes do it regularly. List of foundations set-up by NHL players is readily available from the NHLPA, the Alouettes are very present in the community.

Ohhhhh because now, to be giving back to society significantly, it has to be done in a public manner with all the fuss around it and the medias?

I think that's going very far off topic. We were talking about paying income taxes if you remember. Since when everyone who has a salary, has a legal job and pays taxes also necessarily gives to charity (and I will not even mention calls the media to participate to that EVENT!!).

Knit picking over unrelated pettiness and semantics... wondered what that meant until now. Maybe the oxygen in my room isn't too good anymore and that's affecting me, maybe I should just try the toilet snorkel too.

 

[eastender]

Back on Subject

Ohhhhh because now, to be giving back to society significantly, it has to be done in a public manner with all the fuss around it and the medias?

I think that's going very far off topic. We were talking about paying income taxes if you remember. Since when everyone who has a salary, has a legal job and pays taxes also necessarily gives to charity (and I will not even mention calls the media to participate to that EVENT!!).

Knit picking over unrelated pettiness and semantics... wondered what that meant until now. Maybe the oxygen in my room isn't too good anymore and that's affecting me, maybe I should just try the toilet snorkel too.

Nice try at diverting the subjet.

Please remember that by making the seminal post YOU made the issue public and subject to scrutiny. Complaining that others use the media to publicize their activities and put a positive spin on their contributions is rather disingenious.

That athletes and entertainers were able to change public perceptions of their activities within a short span shows how quickly it may be done. That others are not willing to follow a similar model is a choice they will have to live with. Simply there is no free lunch.

 

[Lilly Lombard]

Nice try at diverting the subjet.

Huh, no! YOU my friend are diverting the subject. We're talking about giving human rights to the millions of prostitutes out there who are denied access to health cares, to decent housing, to normal lives, to education by the governement of their countries.

You are talking about making a publicity stunt and creating a foundation where we give our money in order to attract sympathy to the cause.

If that isn't a stretch far off, I don't know what that is.

Maybe once prostitution is legal and socially acceptable in industrial countries and we will not have to hide our identities anymore, I am sure some well off girls will actually do that kind of thing (many organizations to help sex workers do exist around the world). In the meantime, while we have to hide, I don't see how that would be possible.


Go ahead my dear friend, admit it, we both know what that is really about... It's not about the Charter, it's personal. You know it! Admit it! I can take it, I'm a big girl. You and your good sociopath friend with schizophrenia and multiple personality dissorder have something deep against me (for some reasons that I ignore... maybe because I do not jerk you off in massage parlors for 30$ ) and you've been trying for weeks to affect my reputation through accusing posts on message boards, through back channel (actually, your psycho friend has been at it for well over a year under many different names should I add). Go ahead, say it! Bring it on! Don't be weasel!

 

[Merlot]

Committed S-Disturber

Huh, no! YOU my friend are diverting the subject. We're talking about giving human rights to the millions of prostitutes out there who are denied access to health cares, to decent housing, to normal lives, to education by the governement of their countries.

You are talking about making a publicity stunt and creating a foundation where we give our money in order to attract sympathy to the cause.

If that isn't a stretch far off, I don't know what that is.

Maybe once prostitution is legal and socially acceptable in industrial countries and we will not have to hide our identities anymore, I am sure some well off girls will actually do that kind of thing (many organizations to help sex workers do exist around the world). In the meantime, while we have to hide, I don't see how that would be possible.

Go ahead my dear friend, admit it, we both know what that is really about... It's not about the Charter, it's personal. You know it! Admit it! I can take it, I'm a big girl. You and your good sociopath friend with schizophrenia and multiple personality dissorder have something deep against me (for some reasons that I ignore... maybe because I do not jerk you off in massage parlors for 30$ ) and you've been trying for weeks to affect my reputation through accusing posts on message boards, through back channel (actually, your psycho friend has been at it for well over a year under many different names should I add). Go ahead, say it! Bring it on! Don't be weasel[/SIZE]!

Good for you Lilly,

This charter is a very worthy cause. Just focus on your purpose instead of allowing distractions by S-disturbers with hidden personal agendas to divert you from your cause. The two sociopaths you refer to have been caught conspiring to create "chaos" on the boards for their sad personal enjoyment and each has been banned multiple times on different boards. They post only to irritate and these pests have zero value.

Bravo,

Merlot

 

[Lilly Lombard]

Good for you Lilly,

This charter is a very worthy cause. Just focus on your purpose instead of allowing distractions by S-disturbers with hidden personal agendas to divert you from your cause. The two sociopaths you refer to have been caught conspiring to create "chaos" on the boards for their sad personal enjoyment and each has been banned multiple times on different boards. They post only to irritate and these pests have zero value.

Bravo,

Merlot

Yeah, and by the time it takes him to repsond I guess he and his brain sharing twin are actually PM'ing each other back and forth to come up with an answer...

Unless the sewer's air is not that good afterall...

 

[eastender]

Not How it Works or How It Is

Huh, no! YOU my friend are diverting the subject. We're talking about giving human rights to the millions of prostitutes out there who are denied access to health cares, to decent housing, to normal lives, to education by the governement of their countries.

You are talking about making a publicity stunt and creating a foundation where we give our money in order to attract sympathy to the cause.

If that isn't a stretch far off, I don't know what that is.

Maybe once prostitution is legal and socially acceptable in industrial countries and we will not have to hide our identities anymore, I am sure some well off girls will actually do that kind of thing (many organizations to help sex workers do exist around the world). In the meantime, while we have to hide, I don't see how that would be possible.


Go ahead my dear friend, admit it, we both know what that is really about... It's not about the Charter, it's personal. You know it! Admit it! I can take it, I'm a big girl. You and your good sociopath friend with schizophrenia and multiple personality dissorder have something deep against me (for some reasons that I ignore... maybe because I do not jerk you off in massage parlors for 30$ ) and you've been trying for weeks to affect my reputation through accusing posts on message boards, through back channel (actually, your psycho friend has been at it for well over a year under many different names should I add). Go ahead, say it! Bring it on! Don't be weasel!

I have stated on a number of occassions that the goals of the charter are noble. The issue that remains is what does society get back? Legalize, decriminalize or mainstream prostitution in industrial countries and the question remains. Obviously the prostitutes will benefit BUT what will be the benefits to society?

So far you have failed to answer that very important question.

A few issues you could consider addressing that would benefit society.

Would mandatory testing of prostitutes for STDs be part of the equation?
Will "Red Light" districts or special zoning be part of the equation or will you still have situations where massage parlours open two doors away from nursery schools, SWs solicit next to minor hockey arenas and dump their used syringes in schoolyards.

Put together a viable post charter program / agenda and you will have alot of support but until you offer something viable in return nothing will move forward.

Foundations raise funds because they have a proven and measurable track record of success and they allow donours the ability to direct, to a large extent, where their taxable dollars are going. Evidenced by the various foundations that support youth activities from sports to education or foundations for medical research and other noble causes. They also employ people from within certain areas of expertise and allow voices to be heard.

 

[Lilly Lombard]

I have stated on a number of occassions that the goals of the charter are noble. The issue that remains is what does society get back? Legalize, decriminalize or mainstream prostitution in industrial countries and the question remains. Obviously the prostitutes will benefit BUT what will be the benefits to society?

So far you have failed to answer that very important question.

A few issues you could consider addressing that would benefit society.

Would mandatory testing of prostitutes for STDs be part of the equation?
Will "Red Light" districts or special zoning be part of the equation or will you still have situations where massage parlours open two doors away from nursery schools, SWs solicit next to minor hockey arenas and dump their used syringes in schoolyards.

Put together a viable post charter program / agenda and you will have alot of support but until you offer something viable in return nothing will move forward.

Foundations raise funds because they have a proven and measurable track record of success and they allow donours the ability to direct, to a large extent, where their taxable dollars are going. Evidenced by the various foundations that support youth activities from sports to education or foundations for medical research and other noble causes. They also employ people from within certain areas of expertise and allow voices to be heard.

From the look of it, seems like The Fairy (or was it an Ogre, maybe a dwarf... ) was not around and you came back to your senses? Opened the window much? Good fresh air... feels good doesn't it!


Now why would I have to decide (right here on this message board, in a DISCUSSION on the matter) of these things since I am not one who they would ask to decide for any of these things anyway. My opinion though is something I can share with you... But I think you are intelligent enough to come up with the same conclusions most people did when they read the thing in the first place. NO? Do I really need to draw a picture of what most people are reading into this?

Take example of Amsterdam where it's been legalized and see what they do. I would assume STD testing would be part of the deal, better control on crimes related to that industry, better zoning (not creating ghettos!) etc.

 

[breadman]

Here is the World Charter for Prostitute's Rights found by one of my collegue.

I'd get on that...

Im right behind you...

 

[Lilly Lombard]

The lack of response to the question indicates as well the lack of support the chart has been getting from sexworkers.

The reasons for such lack of support are somewhat obvious.

HUMMM... and what was this? I know MERB is slow, but come on!

I would assume STD testing would be part of the deal, better control on crimes related to that industry, better zoning (not creating ghettos!) etc.

Do I really have to sit here much longer, avoid my housekeeping tasks and my real life to make an exhaustive list... Why don't you make one and I see if it looks good!

 

[Lilly Lombard]

Having international standards can lead the way for countries to adapt their laws and eventually for cities to do the same. It never starts localy to end up internationaly but it goes the other way around.

Localy right now there are only so little that can be done without appropriate measures and regulations put in place. Localy here, is not even THE real issue.

Some countries have legalized sex work and it's working. It allows a better control in fighting crimes comited against sex workers which gives them more safety. It allows keeping the organize crime and street gangs away from this business. It allows a better control of the providers preventing women with illness (mental or physical) to enter or remain in the business, so better health control. It is accepted, therefore, not done in marginality. It is legal, therefore, men and women are not afraid to get caught with their "pants down" which can have a positive impact of the clients or prospects in their decision making. Then, you could write your massages off your taxes!

As I said, it is only a discussion on a message board (No! we're not going in front of the Prime Minister or the UN with it tomorrow) and it should be seen as such.

Exchanging ideas on how it could be improved is the goal here.

EDIT: Removed quote of deleted post by a multiple personality disorder patient.

M8

 

[Lilly Lombard]

Short-lived careers for high returns.

It can be a good jump start for a girl who wants to put money aside in order to go study and become a doctor or a lawyer...

exempt of taxes and responsabilities.

Why would it be if it is legal? If it's legal, it doesn't have to be exempt of anything. And that for the client is actually a good thing... That, would actually be less in favor of the girls than the clients.

don't agree with charters of rights simply because rights come with responsabilities.

Than what in the charter do we change so responsabilities HAVE to be taken?

 

[Possum Trot]

The old adage, "To get you have to give" comes to mind. If you want the various social benefits then you have to contribute to the pot. If you want the privilege of working the streets then you have to do so in a fashion that does not impact negatively on housing values or create additional safety,health and clean-up costs and issues. Do so in a fashion that raises housing values and reduces related costs and you might be welcome.

.

While I run the risk of zeroing in on a small portion of your post I did so because it sort of struck me as just the slightest bit of centre.

I never even thought that "working the streets " would ever be considered a priviledge. Amazing, I thought the one of the objectives was to get people off the streets. Priviledge?

I only know of two places where prostitution is legal - Amsterdam and some counties in Nevada. From what I have seen of Amsterdam it has eliminated street walking and all sex workers are licenced (requires a health test) and generally work in areas where zoning permits this type of business.

Supporting the status quo would seem the surest way of perpetuating disrupted property values, high health costs, policing and court costs to say nothing of human costs.

 

[eastender]

Privilege

While I run the risk of zeroing in on a small portion of your post I did so because it sort of struck me as just the slightest bit of centre.

I never even thought that "working the streets " would ever be considered a priviledge. Amazing, I thought the one of the objectives was to get people off the streets. Priviledge?

I only know of two places where prostitution is legal - Amsterdam and some counties in Nevada. From what I have seen of Amsterdam it has eliminated street walking and all sex workers are licenced (requires a health test) and generally work in areas where zoning permits this type of business.

Supporting the status quo would seem the surest way of perpetuating disrupted property values, high health costs, policing and court costs to say nothing of human costs.

Simple explanation. Certain SWs at times view it as a right to work the streets. Just wanted to eliminate that perspective. In certain parts of Montreal the SWs enjoy a privilege or tolerence as long as they stay away from schools, parks, community centers etc. On an extremely limited scale I would be open to looking at such an option.

 

[eastender]

Clarification

From the look of it, seems like The Fairy (or was it an Ogre, maybe a dwarf... ) was not around and you came back to your senses? Opened the window much? Good fresh air... feels good doesn't it!


Now why would I have to decide (right here on this message board, in a DISCUSSION on the matter) of these things since I am not one who they would ask to decide for any of these things anyway. My opinion though is something I can share with you... But I think you are intelligent enough to come up with the same conclusions most people did when they read the thing in the first place. NO? Do I really need to draw a picture of what most people are reading into this?

Take example of Amsterdam where it's been legalized and see what they do. I would assume STD testing would be part of the deal, better control on crimes related to that industry, better zoning (not creating ghettos!) etc.

No one asked you to decide but once you start a debate or poll then you are best suited to keep it going.

Also, unlike other SPs, your experience is alot more varied so it could be applied to different situations.