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DFK... DATY... BBBJ... so why use the condom?

HonestAbe

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No doubt...

...that many of your points are valid, educated, and well articulated. My compliments on being well read on the subject. Perhaps you are indeed more aware than most of us as to the intricacies of epedemiology and we should be greatful for you mentioning some of the particular risks we agree to take by going GFE in an effort to inspire thoughtful discussion.

Again, I was not referring to your girlfriend particularly as to possibly having been a crack head or a bar whore. Just making the point that you never know what people have done in the past or continue to do presently. This is, admittedly, pessimistic as to trust in loving relationships but as has been pointed out already, you yourself, engage in extracurricular activities, why not her? Especially if she takes YOUR activity as justification to do it herself. Many people cheat at one time or another, fidelity today is a rarity. Maybe you are just one of the luckiest guys out there and your girlfriend is a saint who does, always has, and always will practice safe sex. But she isn`t practicing safe sex with you as you point out, is she? Is that not then a leap of faith? Do Husbands and Wives not betray each other, let alone ``best friends``? 7 years is along time, thats wonderful, but does it guarantee anything other than you get along pretty well together?

Sex with anyone is a risky behavior so if you are going to say we should not do certain things with Sp`s why not say the same for everyone if you are so concerned with safety? As George Bush tells us, abstinence is the only sure way to avoid STD`s and undesired pregnancy. Perhaps, you are willing to accept certain risks, just like those of us who you are so critical of, except that you try to avoid those you view as the MOST ``dirty`` in an attempt to make yourself feel better about your own weakness/indiscriminate behavior. After all, when I have blood work done at my Dr. office they wear gloves the same way with me as they do with everyone else, there is no discrimination when it comes to safety for them.

If you take peoples word for their ``cleanliness`` or make assumptions about it due to their social class/education like your comment about ``Professionals/University grads`` being part of your ``circle`` of friends indicates that you do, you imply that you have a sense of perceived safety having sex with these folks. This exposes your views as being biased. You are implying, without saying it, that people like you and your friends are at less risk than others to which I would point out to you that Kings have died of STD`s and there are more than a few escorts who have college degrees and professional careers who provide GFE service.

You are right BTW, you did not say specifically that Sp`s in general are ``uncultured or inane.`` I merely pointed out that your post inspired stereotypical images of ``nasty`` individuals which you back up further by saying its hard to not believe this to be the case of escorts who take a ``mouthful of semen for a $40 tip.`` Is this really necessary? There are plenty of very nice, intelligent, escorts who offer these services who are not disgusting by any stretch of the imagination to those of us who know them. I imagine comments like that must be very hurtful to those ladies who read this board. Not to pick a fight here but saying things like that doesn`t exactly show great sophistication. You obviously are turned off by the thought of this kind of activity and that is perfectly fine, but if you truly are trying to inspire thoughtful conversation can we leave degrading characterizations out of it?

I don`t think anyone denies that numbers of sexual partners is a serious risk factor. Just realize that intercourse is proven to be more risky than /DATY and SP`s DO concentrate on ALWAYS having safe intercourse while most ``normal`` people do not, for very long anyway. Perhaps then, SP`s are MORE(?) safe (this is theory only of course) than normal people in their private lives since they do what they do, and therefore are more concerned about STD`s while the rest of the population walks around THINKING they are safe because they don`t perform DATY/ with SP`s.

That I use ``Bar whores`` for comparison purposes is only to illustrate that many of them have indiscriminate encounters with lots of unsuspecting fellows who have no idea of what the girl is really like due to intoxication or never getting to know her. One need not actually have sex with a crack whore to be exposed to her possible infection either, you must merely be a part of the chain of contact, or, the ``herd``. Most people have had unprotected sex with several other people who had unprotected sex with someone else, and thus the chain of possible exposure begins. I don`t believe you deny that this is how diseases are spread and it is possible for a long string of people to become infected because of contact with a single infected individual way back at the beginning of the chain of contact. An infection/disease/outbreak usually starts from one source and spreads outward. Thats not an anomaly is it? It sounds more like a basic principle of epdemiology.

This interconnection amongst us all is why I just don`t buy there being THAT big of a difference in SP`s and non-SP`s. Is there more risk? Probably, but is it ``exponentially`` higher? I am not convinced of that for reasons already noted. You are also absolutely right about my argument being a ``sword that cuts both ways``, as I intended it to do. I don`t deny my behavior carries risk, and I don`t discriminate or change behavior based on ASSUMPTIONS over the type of people I see. GFE is here to stay as you can see by EB`s poll, DFK, , and DATY are desired by the overwhelming majority of those who voted. Most of the members on this board have relationships outside the hobby, if they for the most part all seek out and receive ``GFE`` service doesn`t that go to proving something about risk factors as to ALL people in general due to the interconnection factor?
 

fsfiend

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Dec 1, 2005
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From Metaphysics to Clinical Studies

So clearly your side of the argument (hookers not dirtier than average person) now hangs solely on the assumption that SP`s on average practice safer sex than the average person (DATY/ aside here). We can no longer go on hypothetically and metaphysically debating this simple issue because we have currently done that to death.

Rather I invested 15 minutes into some internet research. Being an academic I am well familiar with the proper credible sources such as medical journals and how to efficiently search for information in these sources.

Following are links and summaries of what I found. I feel that I have made a solid argument on the theoretical side and that there are sufficient clinical/scientific facts on the hard evidence side. I challenge you now to also invest 15 minutes (or more if need be) and present a summary of evidence supporting your side of the argument. If my evidence outweighs yours, as I believe my argument already has, then I maintain that I have established on this board the following as fact:

Service providers are on average dirtier than the average person and thus the risks inherent in DATY and are not only not worth it in my opinion for the individual receiving the service but also those who partake are making an above average contribution to the spread of STD`s in our society.

Keep in mind this is the summary of BRIEF (15min max) research just sitting on a personal com. If I went to a University Library where I have full access to all the info and spent a few hours, I could present a 6000 word essay. If I spent a year or two I could write a masters thesis....you get the idea. The fact that SP`s are tainted dirty people has been well known for hundreds of years....to be honest I was very surprised to see so much resistance after posting my first comments.

As I said earlier in another post, people in North America are highly reluctant to admit to being involved in the sex trade, so a good chunk of studies are based in Asia/Europe/e.c.t. However since these are 1st world countries like Canada and U.S.A with high literacy and readily available condoms....the studies are highly relevant to us. In other words I won`t be cheap and use Africa where it is solidly proven that any given population of prostitutes has a substantially higher rate of STD infection than a control group because the poor desolate soles can`t even get their hands on condoms.

However, do note that even the obvious Africa case solidly disproves your idea that the type of people we have sex with is irrelevant with respect to STD exposure.

I will start with studies of American populations though just to preempt any obvious rebukes.

(1) Am J Epidemiol. 2004 Sep 15;160(6):582-8.
This is a recent article in the American Journal of Epidemiology.
Human Immunodeficiency Virus Infection in a Rural Community in the United States
In this article it is stated that ``Independent predictors of HIV infection`` included ``exchanging money or drugs for sex`` and this was cited as currently more important than being ``homosexual.``
Homosexuality of course caries almost as much risk as being a prostitute because of all the anal sex!

(2)AIDS. 2001 Apr 13;15(6):753-9.(AIDS is a peer reviewed medical journal as is most of the stuff I will reference)
High prevalence of syphilis and other sexually transmitted diseases among sex workers in China: potential for fast spread of HIV.
AIDS - home
This article demonstrated that ``Sex workers and their clients appeared to play an important role in the spread of STD``
Another quote from this article: ``The median duration of prostitution was one year, and the median number of clients was seven per week. Antibodies to HIV were present in 1.4%. The prevalence of STD was very high: syphilis 14%, Chlamydia trachomatis 32%, gonorrhoea 8% and trichomoniasis 12.5%``

This particular study was done in China were prostitution is highly illegal and much much less widespread. North American studies are more alarming.

(3) Int J STD AIDS. 2005 Jan;16(1):31-7.
In this recent article in the ``International Journal of STD`s and AIDS`` a study addressing the very misconception that HonestAbe has been propagating. The article is titled ``Does where we live matter? Community characteristics and HIV and sexually transmitted disease prevalence in southwestern China.``
As I have been trying to get across theoretically...it does matter....sure there is the potential for us all to be connected in one way or another. But, I maintain HonestAbe is wrong. Our chances of STD exposure can be very strongly affected by our choices of WHO we engage in sexual activities with.
I think HonestAbes theory is a psychological comfort tactic for himself (similar to sticking your head in the sand). He convinces himself that he is equally at risk no matter whose muff he sucks on and that way he doesn`t have to deal with the stress and guilt after sleeping with prostitutes that many of us feel.
I know how you feel because actually I`ve used many of these same arguments that you made when I`m trying to excuse myself to close friends (including my girlfriend) who (yes blaine) I do indeed I admit my enthusiasm for having gentle protected sex with hookers.
[COLOR=``Red``]
In this article it is maintained that ``commercial sex`` is an ``HIV/STD risky behavior``[/COLOR]

(4) There are a great many more references. A good place to search for RELIABLE and ACCURATE information is on the National Centre for Biotechnology Information (NCBI) website with a pubmed search.
 
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HonestAbe

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My 15 minutes

http://www.who.int/docstore/hiv/GRSTI/index.htm

I saw more than just this site but just wanted to prove that I actually looked.

What I found was you are far more likely to get an STD if you are...

1)Poor
2)Native to Africa, Asia or other third world nation
3)Female
4)Homosexual
5)Engaging in more risky forms of sexual contact like unprotected Anal and Vaginal sex(thought I said this already, before my fifteen minutes of academia...he shoots, he scores)


In addition I found that Syphilis, Gonorhea, and Chlamydia are all bacterial infections which are curable. Herpes and HIV can not be cured but are treatable. There is also a vaccine for Hepatitis(I had it in college of all places).

North America and Europe have a much lower rate of STD infection than most other parts of the world, something like 19 per 1,000 people or 1.9% (math skills!).

Its been a longtime since I was doing 6,000 word essays in college but thankfully I can still read a report. A trip to the library :eek: ?! Sorry, I've had my fill of "academia."

As to my "psychological comfort tactics" to relieve "stress and guilt" I would like to clarify that the only "stress" I feel is trying to manage MSOG, I don't feel "guilt" because I am not betraying anyone, and I feel "comfort" AFTER a GFE encounter with a beautiful SP. I guess were just going to have to agree to disagree on parts of this FS. I think you can see by the GFE poll how the vast majority of members on this board feel about the issue. Everyone is aware there are risks associated with GFE but in the end we are willing to assume those risks along with the SP. You do make a good argument!
 

fsfiend

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Dec 1, 2005
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HonestAbe the pitbull

Abe, old buddy, you are like a pit-bull that I just can't shake off my leg. Are you determined to have the last word? Is that it now?

You've done a good job and are obviously an intelligent guy, but I have truth on my side, which makes my life easier.

Thanks for that website, but you must know it’s irrelevant to our argument. I reviewed it and there is absolutely nothing about STD prevalence in people who accept money for sex. The factors you list for STD vulnerability are absolutely correct and that was never an argument. Yet, it does not address or rebuke any of the studies I summarized in my previous point, which are dead on specific to our argument about whether SP's are ore likely to have STD's or not.

Also the website you provided does not list "Asia" as a higher risk region; it lists south and south East Asia which as you know has a major prostitution problem (much greater than China) which corroborates my point.
 
T

the crooner

back to the topic at hand

I am an not an MD or scientist, but referring back to the original topic of the thread ... Given the thousands of posts and reviews on this forum and given the inclination of members to complain about the slightest inadequacies of the SP we frequent such as the light smell of smoke breath, one would think that if anyone caught anything disease from engaging in , DFK, DATY (not BBFS of course) there would be a torrent of condemnation and discussion on this site. I have searched the site and have yet to find any posts by any members claiming to have caught anything by engaging in these practices which are pretty widespread. I would have to conclude then that the risk of catching anything is pretty small. I am not condoning unprotected oral sex but it seems it must be relatively benign.
 

fsfiend

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Dec 1, 2005
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Lol

Guys......thanks.....but..... HonestAbe and RegularGuy are a minimum standard for replying to this thread.

I know expecting some people to read two or three pages is a bit much sometimes, but the three of us have already brought up the obvious points which "crooner" and "Train" just repeated.

First of all I have all kinds of great sex, but when I get with a prostitute I have only protected FS (which I still find allows me to have a great orgasm). I don't need to pretend I've seduced a GFE. I have real girls for that who don't charge. In the hooker world though, your point is as astute as saying "if you can't make the NFL you should join the special olympics.".....great point though Train..I'm glad you added that challenging bit of rhetoric to the debate.........

Crooner...If you aspire to quickly read over our discussion you would notice how we already covered your point about 3 times back and forth. Still 8 leagues above Train though. You might discover how your assumption is wrong if you attempt to read the discussion that already took place. I simply won't repeat myself. Take a deep breath and ask yourself....why?...why is MERB a more accurate source for STD information than the Center for Disease Control and pubmed which you can access through the National Center for Biotechnology Information website? It baffles me that people would consider this a credible place to obtain such critical medical advice.....If your that inept at doing your own research I suggest maybe asking a doctor at a walk in clinic somewhere out of your neighborhood (in case your worried about your reputation)....ummm doc....is having raw oral sex with prostitutes an above average STD risk....???? duhhhhhhh. LOL good luck with that.. I can't believe you guys. LOL

If however you have something further to add rather than simply repeating a point someone else already made and I already responded to....then please.
 

Joe.t

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Jun 20, 2003
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have you ever been with a escort?

-Sorry but i do not see prostitutes i see escorts, there is a big big difference and if you do not know what the difference is you are beyond help, next tiime show a little bit of class and respect, i have my susspicions about this guy and his motives.

-"If someone is that concerned they'd have to be either weak or idiotic to not practice abstinence".

train- i could not agree with you more.
 

waterpoy

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Oct 14, 2005
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Oral Sex - SAFE ??????????

Hi Guys,

Pls see the below link...

http://www.hivnetnordic.org/health/std/how_safe_is_oral_sex_eng.html


I am really wondering how easily happens here even with this kind of survey result......



``The risk increases if the person giving the blow job has bleeding gums, gum disease, sores, cuts or scrapes in his or her mouth, even small ones that can be caused by brushing or flossing right before sex `` --- can be a reason to get HIV...
 

CryWolf

Jack is back
Sep 24, 2005
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Quit hobbying

Each time I read posts regarding our risk inducing activities, I freak out and want to quit the hobby.

Then our horny lifestyle takes over and we forget about the risks...

Don't you get that same feeling?
 

maxime_1977

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Dec 31, 2004
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"Getting HIV by receiving oral sex, or being sucked or licked, is considered a theoretical risk only. There have not been any reported cases of transmission to the person being sucked or licked." As stated on the aforementioned site. The risk is primarily for the person giving the blowjob, however, if you have a sore or an little cut on your John and shes does in her mouth...well you're screwed! And yes, we do have a tendencie to forget once we're deep inside her throat...;)
 

WRman

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Aug 1, 2003
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Since I presume no one here is an MD, I am glad to see that after some extensive subjective posts, that some have finally posted links to sites of recognized organizations whose full-time business is to deal with STD issues. I have found two new sources from reading this thread, and one I knew before. However, I don`t count links to general news organizations, because they also cover car wrecks and murders, and who knows what their true motivations are when they pen a story.

The best way to assess personal risks is from professional sources. Here are a few I can offer:

Global HIV Info....
``WR`` said:
Some interesting HIV stats from the most current UN report, in ascending order...

1. Estimated number of people living with HIV - Adults (15–49) rate (%)end 2003, 2001:

Mexico: 0.3 [0.1 - 0.4], 0.3 [0.1 - 0.4]
Canada: 0.3 [0.2 - 0.5], 0.3 [0.2 - 0.5]
Costa Rica: 0.6 [0.3 - 1.0], 0.6 [0.3 - 0.9]
United States of America: 0.6 [0.3 - 1.1], 0.6 [0.3 - 1.0]
Argentina: 0.7 [0.3 - 1.1], 0.7 [0.3 - 1.1]
Brazil: 0.7 [0.3 - 1.1], 0.6 [0.3 - 1.1]
Russian Federation: 1.1 [0.6 - 1.9], 0.7 [0.3 - 1.2]
Thailand: 1.5 [0.8 - 2.8], 1.7 [1.0 - 2.9]
_________

Global Total 1.1 [1.0 - 1.2], 1.0 [0.9 - 1.1]

Excerpted from: Table of country-specific HIV/AIDS estimates and data, as of end 2003, 2004 Report on the global AIDS epidemic July 2004, http://www.unaids.org/bangkok2004/GAR2004_html/GAR2004_00_en.htm

True, the UN can be political, and I wonder about the Mexico data. The others seem to be consistent with other sources I have seen, particuarly that Canada has half the HIV rates as the US.

Good link on HIV risk from DATY:http://www.mnsi.net/~aidscw/oral2.htm

The HIV risk to the woman, covered or not, is the same: negligible.

http://www.zolaenterprises.com/stds.htm

WR said:
Here is a Canadian site with info on STDs: http://cliniquelactuel.com/home/page/welcome

A highlight:

How is the HIV/AIDS virus transmitted?
The methods of transmission of HIV in the human are now well understood:

No risk:
- Kissing without the exchange of saliva
- Mutual masturbation without using vaginal secretions or sperm as lubricant.
- Massage and body contact, without exchange of body fluids.

Very low risk:
- Kissing with saliva exchange (deep or french-kissing)
- Oro-genital sexual relations (fellatio or cunnilingus) without ejaculation or swallowing sperm or vaginal secretions.

Low risk:
- Oro-genital sexual relations (fellatio or cunnilingus) with ejaculation and/or ingestion of sperm or vaginal secretions (including menstrual flow).
- Protected (with condom) vaginal or anal penetration.

Very high risk:
- Unprotected (without condom) penile penetration into the vagina or anus.
- The sharing of sexual toys or objects contaminated with sperm, blood or vaginal secretions.
- Sharing needles, syringes, or other drug paraphernalia used in the preparation or injection of illicit drugs.
- The birth of an infant to a seropositive mother not treated for her HIV/AIDS.
- Blood products, blood, organs or sperm received during the period of 1979 and November 1985 (dates during which no HIV detection test was available) are deemed to be potentially at risk for having transmitted HIV.


According to them, DATY, without swallowing, is listed lower (very low risk) than FS with a condom (low risk). So there, Saran-wrappers! Now, somebody find me a cute redhead to sit on my face.

WR

I would also note that for $60CAD www.cliniquelactuel.com is offering a new HIV test that lets you know the results in 20 minutes.
_____________________________________

If you read these, you might reach the conclusion that I have: BBDATY and have some risk, but not nearly the same a BBFS. I would not seek a party with a woman that offers BBFS, but I also don`t consider a party really worth the trouble if it does not include BBDATY.

Further, with your HepA and HepB vaccinations, BBDATY risk, which is already mostly to the man, is minimal. I also am sure that my annual blood test includes HIV.

alex_lean said:
I can see that a number of escorts allow DFK, DATY and/or .
Fine by me, but I don`t understand why, in these cases, the use of a condom is mandatory.
Why bother about the condom then?
Hopefully, Alex, the answer is obvious from this information: there is an amazingly different STD risk from DFK, DATY and/or , and from BBFS.
 
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mass1965

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Apr 5, 2005
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fsfiend said:
My only goal was to arouse contemplation among those who are in strong denial or for some reason truly ignorant.

I have ignored this thead up to this point. It is just the same stuff rehashed over and over again.

However seeing the above, I just wanted to know what other advice fsfriend had for us. It seems clear that he knows so much more than any of us for ignorant souls or people in denial. Maybe he could guide us through our lives.
 
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