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DFK... DATY... BBBJ... so why use the condom?

alex_lean

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DFK... DATY... ... so why use the condom?

I can see that a number of escorts allow DFK, DATY and/or .
Fine by me, but I don`t understand why, in these cases, the use of a condom is mandatory.
Why bother about the condom then?

From a STD point of view, I can`t understand why DFK/DATY/ would be seen as low risk and intercourse without condom seen as high risk.
Somewhere it doesn`t add up.

I have read a number of medical web sites on the subject and I believe I understand the different STD.
I just don`t understand the the use of a condom when DFK, DATY and is allowed on the basis of safety.
Is this market pressure versus STD`s statistics?

Could someone enlighten me about this?
 
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alex_lean

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NYME (proud representative of the "we"),

I did a search on this board using "std".
I haven't been able to find a thread where the question I brought was asked/discussed.

If you have a thread in mind, as you seem to have, I'd be more than thankfull if you could provide it.

That said, I don't want "expert bullshit", I just want points of view(providers' would be great).
 

alex_lean

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Re: New Poster

Originally posted by StripperLover
Alex,

When doing a search that contains 3 letters (4 is the minimum) add a "*" after the 3rd letter & the system will allow it.


NYME,

Maybe you could lighten up on Alex a bit as he's only posted 7 times before ?

StripperLover,

Thanks for taking my defense but:
1) More precisely, the search was on "STD*". I know about the 3 letters limitation of the search engine. I looked at the search results and couldn't find what I was looking for. Hence my post.
2) I have posted more than 7 posts, but my user ID got deleted. So I am starting from "0" again.

I appreciate your willingness to help.
A good example of what a Merbite should be.
 

naughtylady

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stop picking on alex_lean

As an sp I will give you my reasons, penetration tends to create miniscule tears that allow STD`s to pass as any open cut will. DATY, , DFK do not create similar tears, and therefore are considered low risk. That said if either of us has chapped lips, a cancer sore, bit their tongue or cheek or something similar then all of the above are considered high risk. My information is based on pamphlets I picked up at a CLSC.

Naughtylady,
Ronnie
 

nic frenchy

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Originally posted by NYME
let me put it this way. what kind of nitwit asks for medical advice on a bulliten board? Unless the object is to create a problem
go see a doctor
Maybe you should learn to read before you post.
Alex Wanted to know Why SP`s that do Allow Daty,,DFK do not allow BBPenetration.
He did not ask to be enlightened on STD`s Itself.
 

alex_lean

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Originally posted by nic frenchy


Maybe you should learn to read before you post.
Alex Wanted to know Why SP`s that do Allow Daty,,DFK do not allow BBPenetration.
He did not ask to be enlightened on STD`s Itself.
You are quite right Nic.
That is indeed very much the point of my question.

I hardly believe that one of the guys here can answer to my question, but knowing that a number of ladies/escorts/providers read this board, I was hoping some of them could explain their point of view.
 

august456

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for giving daty, men should use dental dams

also sp should only offer cbj instead of to prevent stds from spreading.


for kissing , i don`t know how one can prevent or coverup during kissing. but kissing has low risk of stds
 

Lawless

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Sexual Encounter

To all the above,

If I take you at face value, as soon as you have more than one sexual partner after kindergarden, you are at risk!!

I unfortunately have to somewhat agree with you!!

:mad: :mad:

Lawless
 

Longtimer

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My dear Zaphyr you sound`s to be a really safe SP.
I agree that any fluids contact is a risk for both partners.
A sore in the mouth, a cut on the lips or an pop-up acne button can be an open door to the other person`s health system. It up to you to choose if it`s worth to take the risk.
I use to be quite innocent at the beginning of my trip into this hobby, but since the latest review about SP or customers ``getting all kinds of unwanted company`` (GAKOUC), I now choose the straight old plain FS, no daty, no , no more DFK and no more visit to greek island.

I`m going to wait for the next virgin ``débarquement`` into this industry otherwise the risks are too high lately, not worth it!

By the way if any of you guys see a virgin drop into this hobby, GIVE ME A WACK ;-P

Longtimer
 

fsfiend

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Daty

aabyss said:
I go DATY on her (pussy percing) but was a bit turned off by the smell...so that did not do it for me either.
Ciao
I`m new to MERB, but I`ve been reading a disturbing number of ``hobbyists`` that love DATY. DATY is great guys.....but with a prostitute????? That`s unsafe sex and a excellent way to catch herpes simplex type-II. Aids or Hep-C are unlikely unless you have a cut in your mouth.....BUT...even the slightest abrasion from flossing or brushing before you meet up with her and you can easily catch HIV/Hep-C. HIV/HEP-C/Herpes-II are ALL PRESENT in vaginal secretions. These girls have sex with like 100 different guys a month.

Herpes-II is spread through mucosal surfaces and is thus easily transmitted through saliva. Even worse a sp can be shedding viral particles in her vaginal secretions whether she has herpes sores (symptomatic) or not!. Second, although HSV-I resides in nerve centers near your ear and HSV-II resides in nerves near the base of your spine (connected to your ass/dick e.c.t), both HSV type one and two can spread from the mouth. In summary, symptoms of HSV-II are in your ass/dick/vagina, but transmission is possible through the mouth. GUYS????>>>>...is a really worth it??? I love getting escorts despite having a hot girlfriend because its a fetish of mine. Some girl you just met 5 minutes ago...who cares what her name is..bamm next thing you know you got her bent over and your sticking it in. That turns me on crazy. Intercourse with a condom is very safe. But when I`m in the heat of the moment I don`t delude myself into thinking this is some wholesome girl. Escorts are like 100X more likely to have STD`s. You guys that do regular and DATY with prostitutes....I got two words for you. (1) Stupid (2) Crazy.

The reason I felt the urge to post...If you guys want to get herpes-II (festering blisters all over your dick and asshole for weeks 4-5 times a year and never able to get a clean girl or fuck your wife without knowingly infecting her)....then that`s your problem. But when you encourage DATY and your ruining the business for all of us clean hobbyists.

If every guy insisted on ZERO exchange of fluid and just fully protected fellatio and intercourse then most half decent escorts would probably be cleaner than a typical ``bar star`` you could pick up at a night club for free.

But with all you guys pressuring sp`s into DATY and with your $$$ and keeping in mind that they have do this with dozens of different guys.....this confirms to me that the average escort is highly likely to be dirty.

So in summary. When I call in for escort and find out that she has firm policy to do only cbj and no kissing, digits or DATY, then that my girl. The alternative is the girl who will do for $40!!!!

Consider this. If a sp is so ghetto and low class and extremely dim-witted that she is willing to risk sucking on a raw dick (possibly shedding HSV-II) or risk a surprise ejaculation that could be chalk full of HIV/Hep C. Then this is not the type of girl you want to stick you penis into. If she is willing to do it for you that means she has done it for hundreds of guys before you. I really really don`t like the odds.

Good luck guys. I`ll stick to my clean sp`s and just settle for clean (exciting for me) intercourse and cbj.
 

HonestAbe

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Assumptions?

fsfiend said:
I`m new to MERB...
FS,

First of all I don`t want you to take this the wrong way, I don`t mean any offense by anything I say here and I`m not trying to insult you or your girlfriend. This is just a critical rebuttal to your post because I find your logic to be flawed and not based on reality.

Don`t you think your being a little quick to assume that because a girl is an Sp that she is more likely to have an STD than any other woman you don`t know who you may have sex with that you have not seen results of an STD test for? You make a number of claims that just don`t amount to much more than speculation. For instance, that Sp`s have sex with ``100 guys a month.`` Thats a bit far fetched to begin with but then the next assumption is even more far fetched, that being that an escort is ``100X more likely to have an STD.`` Do you have proof of this? Or is this just a guess?

Speaking of dangerous behavior you sound like you think that DATY// BBFS is perfectly ok with a non SP. If you believe this you are fooling yourself. You mention being ``in the heat of the moment and not deluding yourself into thinking that this is some wholesome girl``, are we to assume you are thinking this as well when you have just picked up a ``bar star``, as you term them, at a club and brought her home? Or any other girl you ``just met?`` Have you required every single girl you ever did anything with to be tested on a monthly basis for STD`s?

You mention ``all you guys`` pressuring these girls into doing these things with money and that they have done this with dozens of other guys. Do you think that your non Sp girlfriend has never done anything like this with another guy? Do you insist on ``Zero`` exchange of bodily fluid with her as well? Do you BOTH get tested every month for STD`s? Do you know where she has been in the past or even where she is right now? Are you sure she is not an Sp or a ``bar star`` when you are not around? How about your previous girlfriends, and while were at it, all their previous boyfriends and so on and so on? Are you sure that you are so clean now? Or that your habits are that much more safe?

Consider this as well, if ANY girl is willing to do these activities you are so afraid of then she is just as likely to be ``dirty`` as any other girl due to the ``six degrees of separation`` theory ( admittedly a theory, but a reasonable one ). Should we assume based on your statements about what you look for as to ``clean`` service that you practice this with your girlfriend and that you have always asked this of every girl you ever had sex with by always practicing ``safe sex?``

Then you mention the stereotypical ``Ghetto, low class, extremely dim witted SP``, your reasoning for this? Because she is willing to ``suck on raw dick``, a crude characterization which includes probably 1/3 to 1/2 of all Sp`s in Montreal, admittedly a guess, but based on experience. Images have been conjured at this point of the ``classic`` drunken, gutter whore with no teeth, drooling and slurring her words as she begs for a suck so she can buy some more crack. This is a huge thinking error and highly insulting to many SP`s I imagine, as well as hobbyists. The members of this board are not looking for stupid, trashy streetwalkers for the oppurtunity to stick our faces in a filthy STD infested crotch.

To categorically lump all Sp`s who give these services into one big group is just as ridiculous as to assume that non Sps` are all clean. In my experience Sp`s ALWAYS practice safe FS. I have never been offered nor led to believe that anything else was available, nor did I ask. On the other hand, I have rarely ever been asked to wear a condom by any non-sp I ever slept with (and not to brag but thats quite a few). Even those who did ask would stop asking after we had been having ``relations`` for a month or so once they felt comfortable with me as a ``person.``

This experience has been similar for most of my friends and therefore I submit to you that the general population is just as ``dirty`` as the SP community will ever be. Most ``normal`` people just don`t view safe sex with a lot of urgency because they don`t perceive a threat from a ``wholesome`` looking person who they see as so wonderful that they want to have sex with. Sort of a ``How could he/she possibly have an STD?`` syndrome, they just seem so nice, and nice people don`t get STD`s right?

SP`s are quite aware of what they are doing and go to great lengths to protect themselves and be aware of their health by getting tested on at least a yearly basis if not monthly. I can`t say I even know more than a few people who have ever been tested for STD`s at all outside of the escort community. This myth you are perpetuating about SP`s being inherently ``dirty`` and non Sp`s being inherently ``clean`` is a disservice to reality. Sorry you think we are ruining the business for you ``clean`` hobbyists. I wonder how we could be ruining it for you if you are as you say only practicing ``safe sex`` with Sp`s? Perhaps a reevaluation of your stance is in order?
 
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fsfiend

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HonestAbe,

I of course take no offense, and in turn I hope I did not insult anybody on this board. If you read on I will point out the logical fallacy in your response after my initial paragraph.

I agree with your comment about ``bar-stars`` being dirty. For the record I have never had sex with a girl I just met at some bar. Call me old fashioned but I have been with the same girl for 7 years now and she is the ONLY girl I exchange bodily fluids with. And in response to your question: yes I do know that I am the only guy she has sex with and am certain she is not a sp! We have had four threesomes over the 7 tears but each time with a young girl (<20) who we knew from an environment outside the party scene (in other words number of DIFFERENT people they are having intercourse with per year is less than 4). In my post I did imply that on average I consider sp`s dirtier than your average ``bar-star.`` This is 100% due to all the DATY/ e.c.t. I did not however imply anywhere that I partake in one night stands with girls I meet at bars. So in summary my purity and the cleanliness of my blood are intact. We were both checked last year and are clear of even HSV-I which is fairly common (1 in 2 people). So I guess that assures me that my principles are keeping me spotless.

Now on to your logical fallacy.

What you have to keep in mind here is volume in terms of number of people you have sex with not number of times you have sex. This of course exponentially amplifies your ``six degrees of separation.`` Six degrees of separation is the theory that anyone on earth can be connected to any other person on the planet through a chain of acquaintances that has no more than five intermediaries. The theory was first proposed in 1929 by the Hungarian writer Frigyes Karinthy in a short story called Chains. There have been a number of neat movies and books with this theme. But, this refers to emotional/psychological connections more than physical connections such as those required to spread STD`s.

Let’s start worst case scenario: ``Bar-Star`` vs. ``SP.`` I don`t think there are any bar stars who are out partying EVERY night. I would say the worst case scenario is 3-4 days a weeks. And that would be extreme unless the girl has sugar daddies and/or mooches off drug dealers full time and/or has rich parents who don’t watch her (in summary has no need to work and is young enough that three nights a week of partying hasn`t taken its toll yet). Now let’s assume the girl gets lucky 50% of the time (that would be unbelievable). For a bar-star that would have to mean actually clicking with a guy enough to go home with him then and there and jump his bones out of pure lust and desire. This would all work out to an extreme high range estimate of maybe 8 guys/month for the slutiest party animal bar-star imaginable. SP`s however are usually working at least 5 days a week and I know of many that work 7 days a week. Just look at the schedules on Escort websites. Now in one hour they have finished with one guy. Think about it Abe....lets assume the ridiculous ..that the average escort has sex with only one guy a night. That alone is 20 guys a month. But I don`t know many of the popular sp`s that do only one trick a night. I`ve heard all the stories of the overworked sp`s going all day all night. And look at many of their schedules. It’s not a stretch to assume that on average the girl gets at least 3 tricks a night 5 days a week. So I’m sorry Abe, 100 may have been a slight exaggeration for an average; it may be closer to 60 guys per month. How do you think they make so much money???? Then final math 60/8 = 7.5. The average service provider (who allows DATY, , digits) is 7.5X more likely than the slutiest most extreme bar-star to have a nasty STD.

Now as we branch out from sluty bimbo at the bar, to cute girl with tight ass you met at the gym and had to flirt with for a few days just to get to coffee stage, to a girl you met in biology class at university who just moved out of her parents and has had only three boyfriends and doesn`t like to party really...........the exposure to your ``six degrees of separation`` as it relates to the physical spread of STD`s drops exponentially. Some where along that evolution of standards the ratio can easily reach 100X more likely for the SP to have an STD. So in summary I hate to say it but many of my numbers were not that extreme in the first place.

Finally. Why is it impossible to get actual statistics on STD prevalence among sex workers in North America? I admit, just to double check I did a Google on STD + Prostitutes and found very little that I wanted to add to this thread. The answer is simple however. There is an enormous stigma attached to prostitution of any type in North America. I ask you straight out Abe.....how many SP`s do you thing willingly admit to their doctor that they are prostitutes? My guess is a very small percentage. This is why it is impossible to correlate the epidemiology of STD`s with prostitution. However if you look at cultures where there is less stigma like in Africa or Amsterdam e.c.t. you will see that there is actually a large body of HARD EVIDENCE that does indeed directly demonstrate that prostitutes are in fact far more likely to have an STD.

Your idea that no matter what girl you sleep with, your odds are the same at getting STD are extremely pessimistic and clearly a logical fallacy. You obviously did not fully understand the full meaning behind the theory of six degrees of separation. This theory refers to non-physical relationships and connection and how we all know a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy.......who knows THE guy. The guy being whatever person is most directly related to any given incident in question. What you need to understand is Epidemiology. I recommend ``Brock Biology of Microorganisms 9th edition, Chapter 22 Epidemiology and Public Health Microbiology. Pamphlets you get at the hospital are designed to be ``spoon feed it to the public`` excessively simple and general. This is why an alarming number of johns and SP`s have no idea what kind of risks they are taking.

An important point in that text book that is most directly related to what we are discussing (related to 6 degrees of sep) is called ``Herd Immunity.`` Herd Immunity is a model used to understand the spread of infection. What it shows is that you don`t need everybody to be vaccinated for say Hep A, for the population in general to be protected from an epidemic. This is because if every infected individual is surrounded by say five vaccinated individuals and one non-vaccinated another non-vaccinated will be blocked from the newly infected by the vaccinated surrounding him/her. Find a diagram on Google or something and it makes it very clear. This principle has been proven and completely throws your ``6 degrees`` out the window with respect to STD`s. Don’t get me wrong ``6 degrees`` is actually proven in peer reviewed social journals but it simply does not apply to direct physical contact.

Now with our new understanding of Herd Immunity consider a new danger that you as a DATY, with SP enthusiast are exposed to. There is no vaccine for HIV/HEP/HSV/e.ct. So now we look at the herd immunity model in terms of direct exposure. A black circle is an infected SP. Her circle of people that she has unsafe physical contact with includes all her johns who partake in DATY, . The johns’ circles of unsafe physical contact include many other SP`s. Infection spreads readily through this herd. (All guys please understand that sticking your tongue all in a SP bare vagina and you have MILLIONS of infectious HIV in your mouth if she is infected. Even the slightest exposed capillary in your mouth and you’re done for, with HERPES you get infected whether you have an exposed capillary or not and whether she is symptomatic or smells like vanilla ice-cream). Since she lets up to 60guys per month give her DATY and accept (lets say 20month assuming that 2/3 of guys have common sense). The odds that she will transmit to more than one guy a month are very high.

So you see Abe you can go on and on about how we are all connected and that you are just as likely to get something from anybody. Yet, a more precise and logical analysis of the situation reveals a quite different picture. Let’s break it down simple:

(1) SP`s have sex with more people than anybody else.
(2) If that SP lowers here safety standards to accept DATY and she is exposed to more STD than anybody else.
(3) More exposure to STD means far far more likely to have STD
(4) If John sees SP`s regularly and is specifically looking for DATY and he is discriminating against the cleanest SP`s and is just as dirty as the most unsafe SP`s

So you call my logic a myth? It is actually an established and well known principal in Medical science. I`m sorry to burst your bubble.

Finally your point about why unsafe johns are ruining it for clean hobbyist. Well this comment even further exposes your ignorance of STD issues. Condoms are by no means 100% effective especially against STD`s like Herpes and genital warts. To add insult to injury it is Herpes and genital warts that you are most easily and mostly likely transmitting by DATY and . So yes, when you partake in DATY and with a service provider you are doing a major disservice to especially other clean johns but also to the entire country as well. We all pay your health bills with our tax dollars. To be honest when I discovered MERB recently and discovered that DATY and are widespread I was surprised, repulsed, and frightened. It has made me seriously second guess ever seeing a sp again.


You see I can look at this with clear logic because I know I have been safe. You however are hooked on GFE with paid merchandise so you have a strong motivation to be in denial.
 
Apr 16, 2005
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Hold the Phone

You have thrown a lot of ideas around especially theories which are used by the epidemiology community as tools to assist them not all with the success we might hope for. I find that theories where human populations in all their complexities are concerned can be quite effectively debated, if only because of the complexities, demographics being only one of many. But what really puzzles me is why you made the statement that you discovered merb and that the daty and bbj gave you pause. Yet earler you quoted the incidence of HSV-1 to be 1 in 2 and highly contagious. The spreading of this needs only physical contact topically to spread. And you were still seeing sp's? That it took discovering merb to give you pause? I should think that the moment you became cognizant of the fact of the incidence of HSV-1 and the mode of transmission of HSV-1 you would have quit. Did I miss a step here? Look, instead of running around like "Chicken Little" may I suggest you gather your facts about the incidence of STD's from the members of this site. This site represents the community of providers and their clients. What better place to gather the true data. Then there is meat for debate. Having followed postings for some time I have not seen any postings of the red flag variety to reflect a serious problem. Perhaps it is underreported but at least create a thread and make inquiries. I should think you would jump at the opportunity as one more important step in your crusade. Such a debate would be a service to all
 

fsfiend

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Hey guys/girls.
Quick comments in response. I`m not sure if any of you who replied understood fully or read fully what I said....was it too long?

This excludes naughtylady. Thanks for the concise post. Good website. Guys if you don`t believe me then you should check out this or similar websites (if you have no access to a good medical textbook).

oliver kloseoff: ? that was interesting? Everything you said was fine (although scattered) then in the end you say ``fsfiend
your scenerios are nice but the bottom line is always.``
What confused me was the BUT. Because right after you seemed to be in full agreement with me.
You say: ``the girl who took a chance 1x and is infected is more dangerous than the safe sex girl.`` I couldn`t agree more...whets your point. Like I said it is the SP`s who accept DATY and give who are the concern. They are taking a chance not 1x but every time for a tip. I am NOT talking about SP`s who practice safe sex! Your point about the bar girl is also in agreement with my points. ``A guy who has had sex with an infected partner can spread it to an SP``. The more people you have unsafe sex with (DATY, ) the higher the odds you will encounter that guy who is infected. Since SP`s have sex with more men than any other non-sp they are most likely to encounter that infected guy and contract something if they provide DATY/.
In short, I`m not sure what you were hoping to add by this...but thanks anyway.

Regular Guy: (1) ``not all with the success we might hope for``
What are you talking about???? Epidemiology has been very successful. Would you like to live back in the day when dieing of cholera or the plague was a major concern. Or perhaps to Africa where 28 million people have HIV (Africa is an example of a country where the epidemiology is week at best).

(2) ``I find that theories where human populations in all their complexities are concerned can be quite effectively debated?``
That’s a neat sentiment, but scientific theories like herd immunity are not like philosophical theories in that they are not abstract in the same sense. Herd immunity is solidly proven (i.e. its textbook fact now).

(3) ``if only because of the complexities, demographics being only one of many``
This sentence got a little redundant and long winded (i.e. you are essentially repeating yourself here)

(4) ``But what really puzzles me is why you made the statement that you discovered merb and that the daty and bbj gave you pause. Yet earler you quoted the incidence of HSV-1 to be 1 in 2 and highly contagious. The spreading of this needs only physical contact topically to spread. And you were still seeing sp`s?``

I mentioned HSV-I to point out just how beneficial being careful can be. But I still see SP`s strictly for cbj and of course protected sex (no kissing on lips or digits either). This is because I am not particularly worried about getting the highly contagious HSV-I. This is because it is not that bad as long as you don`t give your wife a fresh infection while she is pregnant. Otherwise the odd cold sore for the first few years then nothing. So I`m not sure where you got in my e-mail that I was very concerned about HSV-I....as I said earlier did you read it fully?

What you need to understand is that HSP-II can be transmitted from mouth to penis and from vagina to mouth. HSP-II is extremely nasty and there is no cure. Websites like that provided by naughtylady point out that this is rare but they are not referring to high risk sex workers (DATY ) and the associated high volume of sexual partners. This relates back to my point about ``spoon feed it to the public`` information services. They really are not designed to convey the true complexity of epidemiology.

(4) ``may I suggest you gather your facts about the incidence of STD`s from the members of this site``

WOW! This is strikingly ignorant. Does that seem like a controlled study to you? There are much more reliable spots to get this information. Especially since I don`t know how man guys post to admit they`ve been infected with an STD. Especially the regulars who have almost a reputation to maintain. I wouldn`t say that MERB is a comprehensive representation of providers and their clients. It is definitely a partial representation and more on the client side. There are far better places to gather ``TRUE DATA.`` One obvious example is the Center for Disease Control (CDC). This is far truer because whenever a John or SP is diagnosed the data is required by law to be reported to the CDC in Canada and U.S.A. So you can’t get any more ``true.`` That was a cute idea though.

If anybody has a more focused and relevant statement to add to this thread I am waiting and curious. Disappointed so far.
 

HonestAbe

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Still assumptions.

FS,

Sorry if this seems pessimistic, it is, but for good reason. While you seem to have done some reading on STD`s you did not address whether or not you and all your partners, and all theirs, have practiced safe sex, in every instance, with every person, past and present. It goes to credibility as to your safe practices, or to your assumption, that you have always been safe. STD tested or not, your faith in your partners fidelity and cleanliness, while sweet, is rather naive, consider studies that show that nearly half of all men cheat on their partners and women aren`t far behind. In addition most young people now have somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 sexual partners by the time they are in their mid twenties. How many partners have you had, just think to yourself, were they all virgins? Did any of them strike you as particularly skilled in the sexual arts? How do you think they got that way? Were not just talking about your girlfriend here either, were talking about all the others who you assumed were clean but never saw a test for nor required UPDATED monthly tests from as many Sp`s do for themselves. Do your partners know everything you do? Do you believe you know everything your partners do? Or do you just put blind faith in their purity?

You seem to be implying as well, that SP`s are generally unconcerned about their own health. Why would this be? What good would it do them to be careless? Perhaps they have consulted with DR`s and been told that there is less likelihood of STD transmission if certain precautions are taken? I don`t see an epidemic of STD`s being talked about here on the board. Denial? No, I am well aware of what I do(four times a year with Sp`s) as are the rest of us. Admittedly there is a bit of danger involved but IMO no more than getting it on with a ``bar star`` or anyone else that I know absolutely nothing about other than they look hot and they want to get it on right now. Numbers certainly do add to exposure but so do particular behaviors during those encounters. BBFS and Greek being the riskiest of them all. Does anyone know an SP who offers these services BB? I don`t.

Your argument about SP`s being ``dirtier`` than ``bar stars`` ignores the fact that most SP`s nearly always practice safe intercourse (with a condom) while facts show most ``regular`` people do not always do this because of your shared false perception that they are not as likely to have an STD. If you are worried at all then what does it matter if they are an Sp or not? Why not treat everyone the same? Actual intercourse is much more risky in terms of transmission of STD`s than any other act we are talking about. The fact that you are willing to assume that these threesome partners of yours were clean and that you know how many past partners they have had shows your own ignorance since you are presuming someones ``cleanliness`` based on what they have told you or what little you knew of them. Or are you going to tell us you had a background check done on all of them as well? Is this pessimistic of me? You bet. But then isn`t your assumption about SP`s being dirtier than everyone else based on numbers pessimistic as well?

Even in the Pornography industry where actors and actresses are tested monthly there are still transmissions of STD`s because the test only shows if you are clean up to the point of the test. You have no idea what a person has done since that test which makes having BBFS with anyone a leap of faith on your part. Not that it is so odd however, as I said before I think it is the norm rather than the exception for people to assume that someone they want to have sex with is clean since the desire to believe they are pure is so strongly embedded in the romantic mind. Pessimistic again, I know.

I might add as well that ``Six degrees of separation`` while not being rooted in medical terminology is a valid point, not a logical fallacy. Fact is, if you have an STD for which there is no ``herd immunity`` for, because there is no vaccine for it(HIV etc..) and you have intercourse with other people you may in turn spread it to them and them to others and so on without anyone knowing until finally someone gets the bad news. Upon which many people get a phone call from someone they haven`t heard from in years saying ``Hi, I just called to tell you I have HIV and you should get checked.`` That is not a myth, it happens every day. Six degrees of separation or thirty degrees of separation, diseases get passed from infected people to other people and it is a matter of luck many times as to who gets it and who doesn`t. It is also a matter of how risky the particular activities you engage in are and what kind of people you are engaging in them with. You simply never know what someone does or doesn`t have until a test is done. Past sexual history does not guarantee anything but it IS a cause for concern about the possibility of STD`s. Having sex with anybody is a risk without up to the minute test results in front of you.

I think you are discounting the danger of sleeping with someone you don`t know anything about. If you see a sweet looking young girl who is really hot you may be tempted to get to know her better. Upon getting to know her she may seem like an absolute angel. You may date her for weeks or months before you have sex. She may even make you wear a condom at first. After a while though most people stop using that condom because, after all, you can trust her now that you know her right? Unfortunately at some point you may find out that she used to be a crack head who slept with every guy at the local dive who had some including THOSE guys. Who are those guys? They are the ones who sell, distribute, or use the crack to get girls and boy do they get them, in droves. A different girl every night for these guys. Sometimes two at a time. So its not that your little angel slept with 500 guys, she may only have slept with a couple dozen. But every one of them slept with a couple hundred girls who were from God knows where and did God knows what with God knows who so they could get high. So your little angel has been exposed to the germs of 1,000`s of other people. This is several thousand degrees of separation of which you now are a part of. But relax, so are the rest of us. If you are immunized against Hep, like I am, you have that much less to worry about but as far as everything else, better take a trip to the Dr for a test. I congratulate you on your clean bill of health, mine was fine last year too.

The fact that SP`s practice safe intercourse goes a long way to proving that they are no worse than ``bar stars`` because ``bar stars`` usually don`t care about safe sex or are too drunk/high to remember so they do EVERYTHING without a condom. The ``bar star`` consistently follows a pattern of TOTALLY unsafe, indiscriminate sexual contact while SP`s on the other hand consistently make you wear a condom during intercourse. This makes a ``bar stars`` likelihood of exposure to STD much higher despite the difference in numbers because of the specific behavior engaged in, and with whom they engage in it with, which is more risky than or DATY. Alarmingly these ``bar stars`` share many bed partners with those of you who think you are clean, see above scenario again. An SP who offered me BBFS would worry me but I wouldn`t be any more worried about her than I would about a girl I didn`t know.

According to my DR. (BTW I`m not Canadian so I pay for my own insurance) it is more difficult for a man to catch an STD than a woman because of anatomical differences and how fluids are passed and DATY and while not being ``safe`` are not nearly as dangerous as intercourse or Greek. While you say you practice safe sex with SP`s you are still not worried about the possibility of transmission of STD`s knowing that condoms can and do break, and are not 100% safe in the first place? Sounds like you like Russian Roulette a little bit more than you are letting on.

You have obviously chosen to keep hobbying despite what you perceive as a serious health risk. If you limited yourself to Sp`s who only give CBJ and no DATY you would have nothing to worry about from those of us who you claim are ``ruining`` it for you. In addition you could stick to Sp`s who advertise themselves as ``part timers`` or only available for limited engagements so as to cut down on your risk of exposure as far as numbers. In the end you can`t blame us for your own decisions. If you felt that uncomfortable I doubt you would still be doing this. Good luck to you.
 
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Apr 16, 2005
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a thought or two

fsfiend:

Nowhere have I said that the tools used in epidemiology are not useful. The theories you
refer to are based on the laws of probability and able to predict trends among general populations. And I suppose are quite effective in reference to our general population in most instances. I will leave it to the others here to point out to you, as some have already done, how the community of sp’s and their clients differs somewhat from the general population. My comments simply addressed the issue of how results obtained from a study of the general population based on the application of any one theory would apply to subgroups within the general population. For example, a Hutterite community in the west. There will be variations for each particular demographic in society. On the other hand for such things as pandemics, the Bird Flu for one, theories such as you espouse are extremely useful. This infection does not seem to be as specific to one group or a particular human behaviour which may or may not be shared by all segments of the population. Is the MERB community a representative sample of Canadian society as a whole? I have my reservations here. I am gratified that you have introduced the idea of studies conducted by the CDC from medical reporting. Are there any factors which might affect the validity of such reports, for example the degree to which subjects reported truthfully?

No, you are right, a give and take on this forum does not constitute a controlled study but if you want to conduct one please feel free. I for one would have liked to have seen the data from the CDC. It would have been helpful here and most relevant if you could have added it to your comments. I suggest, however that we stick to the forum format as it more closely fits the genre here and is more relevant to the members. I realize that you are disappointed at the level of the debate but it is my feeling from reviewing even a small part of what is out there on STD’s that a debate at the scientific level is outside of the scope of this forum. Actually you have already started a discussion here and I find the give and take very useful in adding to the understanding of this community.

Now I am not saying there is no risk where STD’s are concerned even in this particular demographic(I hope that clears up the redundancy). Any risk is too great you say? Maybe so but at the risk of triviality I’d like to point out that they are all adults here and can and will assess the level of risk and what they are willing to accept. After all, you already seem to have done this. In your reply to me you stated that you are willing to accept the risk of HSV-1 but not HSV-2. (A small point here but the conventional wisdom from the Health Science Report available online is that condoms are not effective in preventing transmission of the disease in any form. But so be it.)

Realistically I am not sure what you are trying to accomplish here. If it is your goal to have the membership cease and desist I truly believe you are on a fool’s errand. The best we can hope for is that all will take a pragmatic approach to this hobby. And I truly believe most here do that. The bottom line here and we all realize it is that the only sure course of action is where sexual activity is confined to a monogamous relationship over the course of a lifetime. Correct me if I am wrong but I believe that may involve a very small segment of the population at this point in history.
On the positive side please understand that I do appreciate that your comments are well intended and we are all better for your sharing them with us. I wish you well
 
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fsfiend

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Dec 2, 2005
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My Response to RegularGuy and HonestAbe

Well guys, it’s been an interesting chat and RG...no I never had hopes that my posts would start a safe sex revolution in the SP community. My only goal was to arouse contemplation among those who are in strong denial or for some reason truly ignorant. You two have truly added to that because seriously considering the opposing argument is the only way to truly have a real stance on something.

I always try to not be obstinate, but on some core issues I’m afraid we will have to agree to disagree. Yet, I enjoyed reviewing the well articulated most recent response of RegGuy and all those of Abe which could be described in the same way. I also appreciated the positive remarks which spoke to the sophistication of both of you and made me feel ashamed for being a bit snappy. With respect to the disagreement I will just point out that your sword cuts both ways Abe. The bulk of your arguments rely more heavily on assumptions than that of mine. I`m sure if you think critically and objectively about your own words (as I try to do with my own) I do not need to describe why this is so…..but…. For example saying “The ``bar star`` consistently follows a pattern of TOTALLY unsafe, indiscriminate sexual contact” is as general and stereotypical as saying all black people enjoy fried chicken. Yet when I say there is a large body of SP’s accepting and giving unprotected fellatio this is based on confirmed evidence easily seen on MERB itself. I don’t “imply that SP’s are generally unconcerned with their health,” I clearly stated from the beginning that it is a subgroup of SP’s that practice DATY, and I have always made it clear that I’m well aware that many SP’s are very safe and educated about STD’s. Similarly, I never implied that SP’s IN GENERAL were uncultured and inane (as you accused me of). I said that it is hard to argue against that case for the group of SP’s who take a mouthful of semen for a $40 tip.

But, here is the biggest loop in your argument. You yourself are making a major assumption in suggesting that SP’s themselves OUTSIDE of their BUSINESS sex have stricter standards than the average person with respect to who they will require to wear a condom. In fact you have to consider SP’s as a unique category in that they have two categories of their sex life. The average SP most likely is just like the average person in their personal sex life with respect to how quickly they decide someone is safe to have unprotected sex with and how often they cycle though their personal (non-business) sexual partners. If you are going to attempt to maintain an opposing stance on this idea then you can only do so on the basis of major assumptions…much greater assumptions than I have ever made. So in short SP’s ON AVERGAE must be dirtier than the average person because they have their base “personal” sex which ON AVERAGE is most likely to not be that different from a regular person (every living creature needs to have sexual relations with someone they feel they care for) AND in addition they have their “business” sex which is only added on to the base risks of the average person.

Furthermore, this is modest assessment in favor of SP’s. Because (and yes this is assumption, but a valid logical one) I’m sure a survey would show the average woman who decided to make a living having sex with strangers is more promiscuous before and during their career. Let’s face it, when you allow one of the most sacred, personal, intimate, and spiritual of human needs to be bought and sold for fairly modest prices you are objectifying yourself. Depending on whom you’ve associated with throughout your life you should have met several people who are imbued with this sense at an early age. Thus it can be argued that completely putting aside the business career of an SP (and its associated risks) the very nature of the type of person who chooses this career makes them more prone to STD’s and thus “dirtier.” Always keep in mind however that I am aware that there are always exceptions and am speaking in terms of averages. But for regular clients who encounter a myriad of SP’s, averages is the only context that is really relevant.

Also keep in mind that this last paragraph is simply supplemental for our amusement and is not needed at all to solidify the previous point

Your little scenario about my “little angel” who is sweet and clean looking but actually was a crack head is pretty extreme. A girl who goes from crack whore to one who is in my circles (university graduates/professionals) is more or less unheard of. And you would have to be obtuse not to spot out signs of a checkered past after knowing someone on an intimate level for months and to the point where you are having unprotected sex. Personally my standard is don’t go to the unprotected sex stage until you’ve had your girl checked and done the same for her and until you also trust her to confess if she cheats.

It reflects on your side of the argument that you consistently need to use the worst examples (bar sluts and crack whores) to try and point out that SP’s are not the riskiest for STD transmission.

If you think about it, you must see the flaws in assuming that STD risk is so random and evenly distributed. The world is not that ideal and black and white. Your point that luck is a player in this game is valid and noted. Yet you fail to point out that in this type of case it would be an exception NOT a norm for a person with higher standards with respect to promiscuity and safe sex to get an STD when another guy on the opposite end of the luck spectrum (eating SP muff) does not get an STD. You are essentially using statistical anomalies for your basis in an argument that is strongly rooted in overall averages; this is not valid.

I also feel sorry if trust between a couple in love for over 7 years is a concept that seems foreign to you. I urge you to not give up hope because when your true best friend is your girl, life can be easier. It does make my life only slightly harder when I have to admit to my girl that there is nothing wrong with her (indeed I still find her beautiful as do most guys) but I still lust for a new vagina. I would love for a psychologist to get on this thread and explain why there is no pussy like new pussy.

GeneralGuy: I have essentially addressed you comment about the unique demographic represented by the MERB type community by pointing out that based on sex life the average SP would essentially be a sampling of two sexual demographics, that related to business and that related to personal relationships.

I don’t think there is anything that affects the validity of CDC reports because doctors cannot falsify the results of STD test or alter peoples medical records (highly illegal and unethical)…maybe you could bribe some doctors but I don’t think SP’s have that kind of income. Probably a few johns do. I didn’t think I needed to add a link because CDC is major organization that is separate for U.S.A and Canada. Anyone needs to simply Google “CDC” and spend some time educating themselves.
 
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