Race/Ethinicity Question

[EagerBeaver]

Sam,

There are numerous question raised by the story this guy told. According to him the girl asked him questions about where he was from and he walked out. He didn't contact your agency but instead started this thread and then halfway through the thread he adds the detail that the girl came from another agency after I exposed that your agency had many black and minority guests at its party. The thread should now be closed. It's just an unproven accusation and very likely bullshit.

 

[CLOUD 500]

I am with EagerBeaver on this one. There are too many missing details plus the OP's first post was about this. The OP has no history of posts of reviews giving him zero credibility. There are many reasons a SP may refuse client and it is not automatically race related. In general society is too quick to call our racism due to frustrations. I am brown myself and honestly I have never been refused a take out by a stripper based on my race or by a SP although my experiences with SPs has been very limited. I do remember one case when I called Chocolate Love Divas to book Sabrina a Black girl the booker was making excuses to not book her with me as he assumed I was Black. Sabrina did not see Black clients I forget what her reasons were but I think it was because she did not want to meet a family member. I booked Keysha who does see Black clients. She reported to the booker that I am not Black. The next time I called they booked Sabrina to me. Sabrina told me the story of how the booker thought I was Black. Unless it is clear beyond reasonable doubt that the refusal was race related then for the moment this is all speculation and as EagerBeaver said very likely bullshit. In a court of law one has to be able to prove beyond reasonable doubt. I meet UncleSam and he is a cool understanding guy. I have faith in his ability to run a neutral agency with integrity.

 

[BookerL]

In a court of law one has to be able to prove beyond reasonable doubt. I meet UncleSam and he is a cool understanding guy. I have faith in his ability to run a neutral agency with integrity.

Beyond a reasonable doubt is the onus in Criminal Court only .


In civil cases, the onus of proof lies with the plaintiff who must prove his case by balance of probabilities.


Which in this case like EB said and you did

There are too many missing details plus the OP's first post was about this. The OP has no history of posts of reviews giving him zero credibility.

Cheers





Booker

 

[Passionné]

There are too many missing details plus the OP's first post was about this. The OP has no history of posts of reviews giving him zero credibility. There are many reasons a SP may refuse client and it is not automatically race related. In general society is too quick to call our racism due to frustrations.

Yeah. I hesitate to say this, but missing details, maybe mistaken presumptions, some admitted mistakes about who is working for whom. I wouldn't add he's a first time poster but the rest leaves too many questions. Give a little more time for precise explanation then maybe this whole thing should be erased if those details are not provided. Where a thread implies a lady's or agency's practices is in question there should be some more certainty about details. Otherwise such a thread is unfair to the businesses it's about. This thread is a mess of the unexplained. Maybe it should be gone if details are not made much clearer with greater certainty. There's too many inflammatory questions as is.

 

[L. Boomer]

Just wanted to drop my 2 cents regarding my experience as a brown person in Montreal. I don't post often and am relatively new to this hobby. Before I began, I was terrified of rejection because of my own perceived looks (regular build, early 30s but brown). I used to let the agency/indy know of this before I set an appointment. Never once me being a person of color was an issue to any of the wonderful ladies I have met. In fact, I learned that the perceived possible rejection due to my color was all in my head. All the ladies I have seen (many in Nadya's, one at Euphoria's and two indy's) were very nice, understanding and helpful during the sessions. They never disappointed me and I never caught any scent of racism. Now, I no longer mention my body color when requesting an appointment. Perhaps one day I will face rejection as per rules of statistics but as someone said in the thread, you take it and move on. I would respect the lady's decision as it is their intimacy that is being offered which is different than any other services. Thankfully, that hasn't happened yet and I hope it never does.

 

[Sol Tee Nutz]

8 pages and still going? It wuld be simple if the OP mentioned the SP's name and ended this, if it happened.

 

[Halloween Mike]

It's totally unfair to XO to close the thread until Sam's investigation is completed and he has a chance to respond to the accusation of racism by one of his escorts. I have no idea why HM said he is done and there has been a suggestion to close the thread.

I never said it should be close, but that i was done with it personally. The whole "is it racist or not" thing has been debated to death and i gave my arguments on why i think its not, while some other members keep repeating it is. No point continuing arguing. But of course yes Sam has a right to conclude the thread situation.

Personally no matter if the situation is true or not is irrelevant to me. If its not true, it mean OP is bogus and tried to give negative effects to Xo, wich sucks and is underserving, but nothing i can do about it.

If situation is true, SP has the right to refuse anybody she want, refusing a person of color does not make her a racist, end of story.

No matter the outcome of this thread it will certainly not change my view of Xo and my business with them

 

[minutemenX]

The girl in this business has all rights to refuse any client without explanations and without giving the reason. I would not condone refusal for any service in any other line of job based on race, ethnicity, age, appearance, physical deformities etc but she is sucking your dick and f-ks you for god sake and can through up if she is not comfortable. This discussion is useless.

 

[EagerBeaver]

The girl in this business has all rights to refuse any client without explanations and without giving the reason. I would not condone refusal for any service in any other line of job based on race, ethnicity, age, appearance, physical deformities etc but she is sucking your dick and f-ks you for god sake and can through up if she is not comfortable. This discussion is useless.

I totally agree and I think the vast majority of the posters here agree. Whether the story is true or not, and from what we know it probably isn't, the thread is useless and should be closed or deleted. These "crybaby threads" complaining about not being serviced for any reason should be against MERB Board rules. Unfortunately most of the early posts in this thread tended to condone this posting behavior, which is the reason why I intervened in this thread. There have been some other dozen or so "crybaby threads" posted on MERB about refusal of service, not just for racial reasons but one I recall because the poster was intoxicated, and it's just ridiculous for anyone to think that automatically they are entitled to be serviced as if they were taking their car to Jiffy Lube. And they all spawned a similar reaction to what you posted above.

Mods, please do your thing to this thread.

 

[talkinghead]

I'm going to point out three obvious things. First, a discussion of the cultural practices around the hobby is always valuable. The specific case here may indeed have been overblown and possibly was a disservice to the agency; that can be dismissed and for that reason the thread should probably be closed. But a broader discussion about the relationship between SP restrictions, advertising practices, and social attitudes toward race and gender is very legitimate on this board; much of this thread is not about the situation but about a problematic practice of denying service based on race. That's not a new conversation out here but it's a legitimate one. To say that a discussion about racial attitudes in Montreal or in the business is "useless" is to make astonishing assumptions about the limits of discussion out here. There are many, many topics current right now that have far less to do with escorting than this one. (And posters continue to miss the point, which is frustrating; to say that a girl has the "right to refuse service without explanation" is moot and irrelevant and widely granted; the debate was about other things.) Second, the fact that many people here are saying the same thing doesn't make that right and in itself shouldn't close the thread. The thread should be closed because the specific situation seems done, but not because there is agreement that a discussion about race doesn't matter. Third, all the threads calling this thread useless are themselves a big part of this thread; this thread took off in part because of the number of people trying to stop it--and in doing so are extending it.

To repeat, to the degree that the original post has been resolved, this thread can end; but to the degree that this thread raised difficult questions, the conversation was and is legitimate.

 

[EagerBeaver]

I'm going to point out three obvious things. First, a discussion of the cultural practices around the hobby is always valuable. The specific case here may indeed have been overblown and possibly was a disservice to the agency; that can be dismissed and for that reason the thread should probably be closed. But a broader discussion about the relationship between SP restrictions, advertising practices, and social attitudes toward race and gender is very legitimate on this board; much of this thread is not about the situation but about a problematic practice of denying service based on race. That's not a new conversation out here but it's a legitimate one. To say that a discussion about racial attitudes in Montreal or in the business is "useless" is to make astonishing assumptions about the limits of discussion out here. There are many, many topics current right now that have far less to do with escorting than this one. (And posters continue to miss the point, which is frustrating; to say that a girl has the "right to refuse service without explanation" is moot and irrelevant and widely granted; the debate was about other things.) Second, the fact that many people here are saying the same thing doesn't make that right and in itself shouldn't close the thread. The thread should be closed because the specific situation seems done, but not because there is agreement that a discussion about race doesn't matter. Third, all the threads calling this thread useless are themselves a big part of this thread; this thread took off in part because of the number of people trying to stop it--and in doing so are extending it.

To repeat, to the degree that the original post has been resolved, this thread can end; but to the degree that this thread raised difficult questions, the conversation was and is legitimate.

What you are basically saying is that escorts have a duty to service men/women of all races. They do not. An escort has the right to deny service to anyone for any reason, period and end of story. It's her body. As a practical matter most agencies will honor this and defer to the wishes of the escort. Any assumption to the contrary views escorts as robots with no rights but to do anything other than that which they are asked or requested to do. Furthermore, there are legitimate reasons for denying service based on race which Halloween Mike/Pat98 and others have posted. So any way you cut it, it's a pointless discussion and the thread should be closed.

Mods, please close the thread.

 

[hungry101]

I always cringe when I read the words No Black Men. Personally, if it weren't for a black man going to bat for me I do not know where I would be today. I owe a debt of gratitude to this man.
I asked an escort I spent time with in Minnesota why she advertises no black males. She told me that she was robbed at gun point by a black male who pretended to be a client at her in-call. We had a long talk about it over drinks. She said that she is not a racist (she is also not white but a latina) and that she even once had a serious boyfriend that was black. She just said in her own words that if she is safer if she avoids black men. She even told me that if anyone uses bad English (ebonics) on the phone or in a text or e-mail that sounds hip-hop that she will not see that person. I can remember she said if you want to see me and you write Hey, what up dog... she will not see you. She wants professional males who pay their bills and do not cause trouble. The best way to do this is avoid black males. I believe that Doc Holiday was once told the same thing and he posted this in a similar thread.

Here are the FBI crime statistics by race: https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/tables/table-43 The statistics are staggering.

BTW - The black male that I owe a debt of gratitude has been in Le Gentlemen with me and has had dances so my personal experience does not indicate Le Gentlemen is racist.

I wouldn't be surprised if this thread is the work of the infamous Tony the Elf.

 

[Passionné]

To repeat, to the degree that the original post has been resolved, this thread can end; but to the degree that this thread raised difficult questions, the conversation was and is legitimate.

The lack of extremely relevant facts has made this thread highly questionable in it's lack of fairness to an agency and it should be closed or eliminated. But when someone suggests anything on this subject, no matter how well founded a complaint may be, is crying, that's disturbing in it's principle that nothing should be questioned or made accountable.

 

[EagerBeaver]

I wouldn't be surprised if this thread is the work of the infamous Tony the Elf.

I thought this too after the initial post, although the second round of postings he made suggested to me that it was not Tony. Honestly, the overall gist of the postings is right out of the Tony playbook, but the style of the postings differs from Tony's signature style. I would say substance is very Tony-like but not the form. It cannot, however, be ruled out that this is a new and creative Tony enterprise, but my guess would be it's probably not.

For those who do not know Tony, he is a person, but also an idea- an idea that anyone can say anything on the internet with an anonymous handle and have it believed. The "idea that is Tony" pushes this belief to its outermost limits, for the purpose of exposing responding posters as gullible, foolish, and ignorant. I believe that Tony the person derives pleasure out of this activity- for him it is mental masturbation, an orgasm occurring when the thread is believed and allowed to stand, as opposed to being closed. Tony has succeeded many times in the past in fooling Mods and senior posters - his greatest work and masterpiece being Amanda Geneva, a fictitious SP many members sought to book with even though Amanda was Tony and Tony has a penis, not a vagina.

Tony also famously hacked into JoeT's MERB account and posted fictional statements by JoeT from that account a couple years ago. I kind of knew it wasnt Joe when I read the posts (which were all deleted) but some people did believe them.

 

[talkinghead]

What you are basically saying is that escorts have a duty to service men/women of all races. They do not. An escort has the right to deny service to anyone for any reason, period and end of story. It's her body. As a practical matter most agencies will honor this and defer to the wishes of the escort. Any assumption to the contrary views escorts as robots with no rights but to do anything other than that which they are asked or requested to do. Furthermore, there are legitimate reasons for denying service based on race which Halloween Mike/Pat98 and others have posted. So any way you cut it, it's a pointless discussion and the thread should be closed.

Mods, please close the thread.

I'm surprised by your response since I have always taken you to be a careful reader of posts, EB--but not in this case. I am not denying an individual escort's right to refuse service; I take that for granted. I don't know how many times I can repeat that.

Like others, you're seeing this as an individual choice; but it's clearly more than that. It's an expression of the business and culture of the hobby. For some reason, many escorts refuse to see black men, a practice that is so widespread that black men apparently must announce their race when making an appointment. Yes, I find that troubling. But more than that I'm interested in *why* that's the case. We're not talking about an escort opening the door, seeing someone drunk or abusive or unclean, and saying "no thank you." This is a practice that is in place *before* the client shows up based NOT on the individual client but on a general set of assumptions about black men.

There are clearly reasons that many escorts don't see black men, reasons that are not based on individual experience. Some have responded in this thread and explained those reasons; I appreciate that. Hungry101 provided another answer. Perhaps I should accept that there are enough reasons that enough black men don't make good clients that the restriction is warranted. So, based on demographic and cultural reasons, I'm willing to rethink my original dislike of the restriction. If there are good reasons, then okay. But to say "it's an escort's choice" is simply beside the point of the question. I take it for granted. I'm interested in the broader implications.

And, Passionne, I agree; if this thread is harming the agency, then it should be closed. To the degree that it's about race or demographics or Montreal culture or even about the limits of speech on this board, then I think it's legitimate. There are many threads that start with A and end with a discussion of Z.

 

[CLOUD 500]

I'm surprised by your response since I have always taken you to be a careful reader of posts, EB--but not in this case. I am not denying an individual escort's right to refuse service; I take that for granted. I don't know how many times I can repeat that.

Like others, you're seeing this as an individual choice; but it's clearly more than that. It's an expression of the business and culture of the hobby. For some reason, many escorts refuse to see black men, a practice that is so widespread that black men apparently must announce their race when making an appointment. Yes, I find that troubling. But more than that I'm interested in *why* that's the case. We're not talking about an escort opening the door, seeing someone drunk or abusive or unclean, and saying "no thank you." This is a practice that is in place *before* the client shows up based NOT on the individual client but on a general set of assumptions about black men.

There are clearly reasons that many escorts don't see black men, reasons that are not based on individual experience. Some have responded in this thread and explained those reasons; I appreciate that. Hungry101 provided another answer. Perhaps I should accept that there are enough reasons that enough black men don't make good clients that the restriction is warranted. So, based on demographic and cultural reasons, I'm willing to rethink my original dislike of the restriction. If there are good reasons, then okay. But to say "it's an escort's choice" is simply beside the point of the question. I take it for granted. I'm interested in the broader implications.

Well you can see the answer to this question in the way the posters replied and their attitudes. They do not see it as an issue and keep on going to the same response "It is her right to refuse". Granted it is her right but as you said it is the culture of the sex industry toward Black men as a whole and even Black women that is the problem. Stripclubs artificially control the racial mix. Black strippers must announce their race to the clubs as there are Black girls quotas. Having said that I believe it is more the mindset that these women are refusing Black men. As Hungry101 posted... That girl in question is quiet ignorant as if no White client has ever tried to rob an escort. These cases has happened but I ask again I never heard of any SP refusing a White man based on race. But I believe this to be a futile discussion.

Someone wrote about Le Gentlemen... Only few specific Black guys that know the doorman are allowed into the club or usually they are declined. The ones that do enter the girls are told to not see any Black clients. This I can attest as I went here around 2013 with a Black friend. The girls avoided her like the plague. He even went to see two girls and they snobbed him. He decided to leave but I stayed. Within five minutes of him leaving I got swarmed with girls coming to me one after another. This is no ghetto Black guy btw. He is in his 40's dressed casually and got a well paid job. On another occasion in 2012 I went to Flamingo. My Black friend entered before me but the club would not let him in. He made a story that he was there to meet a White stripper which was true. Once he entered the doorman followed him and was standing right in front of him till the girl showed up. These are all true stories and it shows the general attitude and culture of the sex industry towards Black men. I am just very lucky to not be a Black man as I would be exposed to this kind of discrimination. I love Black girls and many would probably refuse to service me if I were Black. It is the sad reality.

 

[Doc Holliday]

What you are basically saying is that escorts have a duty to service men/women of all races. They do not. An escort has the right to deny service to anyone for any reason, period and end of story. It's her body. As a practical matter most agencies will honor this and defer to the wishes of the escort. Any assumption to the contrary views escorts as robots with no rights but to do anything other than that which they are asked or requested to do. Furthermore, there are legitimate reasons for denying service based on race which Halloween Mike/Pat98 and others have posted.

I absolutely agree with this. Very accurate. :thumb:

By the way, let me add my two cents. Several escorts have told me in the past that they had nothing against black guys, but the main reason why they chose not to see black clients was because every time they or a colleague got ripped off, the client was a black guy. They did find it regrettable that the majority of potential black clients had to pay because of a few bad apples.

 

[Passionné]

Well you can see the answer to this question in the way the posters replied and their attitudes.

You know what makes the "it's not racism" guys so comfortable about their view? They know the shoe won't be on the other foot. Guaranteed if the population of Montreal was reversed and the vast majority of clients were black, white guys who would face the same kind of wholesale rejection would be screaming R-A-C-I-S-M!!! YOU CAN'T DO THAT! Not having to face any race barriers at all makes it very easy to say denial of sex based on ethnicity is not racism. It's the age old story. Ethics of opportunity and convenience.

And the beat goes on.

 

[A12B]

Man-o-man ... It took me a few drinks and quite a while to understand this thread from all the way down in Florida. First, I was at XO's party and yes EB is right there were a few men of color, blacks, yellows and browns. Look, I'm not a racist but as Halloween Mike is saying, there is a trend going on about the so called reverse-racism ... that is when any visible minority encounters an issue with a white, then all the sudden, the white is racist !!! On the other side, I doubt the OP's credibility not only because he is a new poster, but also for the simple reason that he did not go back to XO and express his dissatisfaction. Believe me, if one of XO girl refuses me, XO will know in a heart beat ... Why the hell am I wasting my time in traffic going to the incall place and bust my balls for stressing myself out to get there ??!!! IF, and I re-iterate IF the story holds true, then the girl should not be part of an SP agency. MP yes or Indy yes, by all means.

I have different opinion than most of you guys. Chew me up guys, I don't care but my opinion remains ... . It is up to the girl to choose to whether go full blast in an agency or not. In an agency, you are vulnerable to be intimate with all kinds of dudes and if you are fully aware of this, then by all means, the agency is for you. It is up to the girl to decide whether she is ready for this or not. Therefore, whether race, being dirty, young, too old or whatever reason should not be an issue, there should be no reason for refusing a client when you work for an agency, period. For me it is unacceptable. IF a girl cannot cope with the variants, then go Indy and screen your clients or go MP and be YMMV. I have seen MP's that refuses to give me a bbbj when my friends got one. It's totally OK with me and I do understand the YMMV effect. And same for the reverse where I got full FS, where reviews said nothing is available .... . So guys, this is my opinion. This is the reality of the SP/Agency world. Either you suck it up or don't do it .. period.


Let's break it down so we can better understand this industry.

In the SP industry, Forrest Gump theory applies ... 'it is like a box of chocolate, you never know what you gonna get'.

Agency = All kinds of human beings = Be ready for it

Indy = Screen your clients = right of refusal or ignore emails, calls or texts,

MP = All kinds of human beings but offer service as you see fit you, thus YMMV.

With all that said, I doubt the OP is being sincere here and God forbid I'm wrong, just go to XO and report it. Knowing XO professionalism, there will be action taken and proper compensation should be provided (discounts etc).

To my knowledge, with the girls I've seen at XO, I will doubt any of them will deny a client .. period (let alone race, weights, etc). Rosetta will jump us all .. lol !!!!

So, I'd say this to the OP : Please unfold the SP name, time of the appt etc to XO, not the board (if you deem to want to be private). There WILL be resolution to this matter.

If not, please do not pollute a fine agency that means well. To me, XO is the one I had NEVER an issue with.

Uncle, keep up with the good work !

Cheers,
A12B

 

[anaconda]

Just noticed that MTLGFE is now listing the escorts services and "preference" of clientele type. Pretty good idea and saves a lot of time and hurt feelings.

Kudos to them. Other agencies should take notes.

In the meantime, non-whites who call agencies should just let them know upfront so no one's time is wasted.

My 2 cents.