The "incel" sub-culture

[Valcazar]

They do not see themselves as losers or socially awkward. They blame women for the rejections they are receiving. They see women as having made irrational choices in terms of their sexual partners, and in not choosing them. Women therefore are deserving of violence and death, as are the sexual partners they choose.

This is a big part of it. I'm not sure when that shift happened, or if it was always there. But fairly early on in Incel culture it became a thing. Some versions turn it into biology - women are incapable of rational thought, and so can't help acting this way. Others make it more malicious, where women are aware of what they are doing but are by nature evil and so do it anyway. But in all cases the source of it is women. There is usually a touch of how the "old days" kept this in check by not allowing women to vote, or having arranged marriages, and so on. Letting women influence society resulted in a societt where the incels are oppressed.

If you ever feel like exploring you can go on one of the incel boards on reddit or go find incel.me or incel.co or whatever it is an check that out.

 

[jmioffe]

they don't believe self improvement is necessary or the issue at play in their involuntary celibacy. They do not see themselves as losers or socially awkward. They blame women for the rejections they are receiving.

I don't think this is exactly right. It's not that incels think self-improvement isn't necessary, it's that they believe all self-improvement is for naught because women basically want tall, handsome and in most cases, white -- qualities which cannot be acquired.

Self-improvement, which leads to qualities such as being interesting or having lots of money, pales in comparison for women to those genetic qualities. This explains why so many of women are willing to forgive men with such bad qualities, such as being criminals or boring or immature or poor, if they have those genetic benefits of height and appearance to offer.

An older woman who is not as valuable sexually is more likely to appreciate self-improvement, but then again, an older woman is not prized as much. And they believe that in her heart of hearts, a woman will still prefer a man with those genetic benefits -- it's just that she can no longer get such a man.

It makes sense to me, admittedly. This next part is where many diverge:

They see women as having made irrational choices in terms of their sexual partners, and in not choosing them. Women therefore are deserving of violence and death, as are the sexual partners they choose.

Women's emphasis on genetic qualities is just the way it is. We are all animals, and in some ways, their behavior according to this model is rational. Some men react to frustration over this state of affairs with violence. Others with sadness. Many are just angry about the gaslighting -- that society by and large refuses to recognize this aspect about women, and encourages men to work harder and get a better personality.

You know there's a joke about this, that I've even heard women make: That "creepy" behavior is largely dependent on how attractive a guy is. Two guys can do the same thing, but if the woman is attracted to the guy, it's not creepy.

Rodgers probably creeped out every woman he ever met, and watching and listening to that video, we can all see why. Looks was not his issue. It was his attitude. He could not see it. Women do not want to be creeped out - they want men who act normal and who they are comfortable around. Would you be comfortable having Elliot Rodger in your house after hearing that kind of nonsense? Most women have radar for creepy behaviors and as soon as they sense them, it is all over.

It's a sort of irrational jealousy that drives the incel. Most of these guys cannot see in the mirror what is looking back at them. Some people who met Elliot Rodger, family friends, claim they knew something was wrong with him at age 8 or 9. The kid was in psychiatric treatment from age 6 til his death at 22, was never actually diagnosed with anything, and refused all proffered medications. His psychiatrist was sent a copy of the video and his manifesto before anything happened and told Rodgers' parents, who then contacted police - too late and after the fact.

Eliot Rodger is a complicated case. He had a white father and an Asian mother, and that combination often leads to children with identity problems, especially if the Asian woman prizes whiteness, but her son does not look white. There is an incel aspect to this because whiteness is another one of those genetic qualities that incels believe are prized but unattainable no matter how hard you improve yourself.

 

[Valcazar]

jmioffe - that kind of screwy EvoPsych thinking is exactly the kind of stuff that festers among incels. Obviously, you can find it in other places, but that is the kind of thread that links incels and other misogynist groups.

 

[EagerBeaver]

The attack was staged by "involuntary celibates":

Deadly attack at Toronto erotic spa was incel terrorism, police allege | Globalnews.ca

Experts said it was the first time anywhere in the world a terrorism charge has been laid over violence tied to the “involuntary celibate” misogynist movement.

globalnews.ca

The attackers were disciples of Elliot Rodger, he of the "Retribution" manifesto and video:

Video: YouTube Video: Retribution

Investigators are reviewing a video posted online by Elliot Rodger, 22, who has been identified as the suspect in the shooting and stabbing deaths of six people near the University of California, Santa Barbara.

www.nytimes.com

 

[ShyMan]

Deadly attack at Toronto erotic spa was incel terrorism, police allege

Deadly attack at Toronto erotic spa was incel terrorism, police allege | Globalnews.ca

Experts said it was the first time anywhere in the world a terrorism charge has been laid over violence tied to the “involuntary celibate” misogynist movement.

globalnews.ca

"A deadly attack at a Toronto erotic massage parlour three months ago is now being treated as an act of terrorism after police allegedly uncovered evidence it was inspired by misogynist incel ideology.

Charges against the suspect accused of carrying out the Feb. 24 stabbing attack, which killed a woman and injured another, were updated in court on Tuesday to “murder — terrorist activity.”

The suspect, who cannot be named because he is a minor, was also charged with terrorism for the alleged attempted murder of the woman who survived."

. . . .

"It is also believed to be the first time Canada’s anti-terrorism laws have been used to prosecute an act of violence by a suspect who was not an Islamist extremist. "

. . . .

"A police source told Global News the suspect had said he wanted to kill as many women as possible."

. . . .

"The incident took place at the Crown Spa, which offers “sensual body rub” and “an exotic massage that will leave you feeling completely relaxed and spoiled senseless,” according to its website.


At around noon on Monday, Feb. 24, the owner said she heard screams coming from a back room. When she went to see what was happening, a man stabbed her with a machete."

. . . .

“What begins as a personal grievance due to perceived rejection by women may morph into allegiance to, and attempts to further, an incel rebellion,” a Texas Department of Public Safety report said in January.

“The result has thrust the incel movement into the realm of domestic terrorism.”

 

[curly]

So sad! He was a minor... At that age, our sexual identity and self-confidence are all to be built. So sad that he was sinking in this dead-end that the incel subculture is, at that age....

 

[jmioffe]

I saw this and thought about posting it here too. I'm confused though. You'd think incels would celebrate erotic services if they can't get it any other way.

I don't know how this jibes with incel ideology. Can anyone say?

Deadly attack at erotic spa in Toronto was 'incel terrorism,' police allege

Toronto police say that the 17-year-old male who allegedly killed 24-year-old Ashley Arzaga at a spa in February was motivated by the misogynist "incel ideology." Legal experts say this is the first time a terrorism charge had been laid over violence tied to incels, or "involuntary celibates."

twitter.com

 

[CLOUD 500]

^^^^^
I strongly disagree with that statement. It is a skill to be able to attract women hence Pick You Up Artist. Having said that is takes a personality type and good looks. I noticed how the guys who are good at picking up women seem to have the same personality type. Incels lack social skills with women and get frustrated. Some crack and rage against women. No one helps them society shits on them because they are not confident and cool.

 

[jmioffe]

> Having said that is takes a personality type and good looks. I noticed how the guys who are good at picking up women seem to have the same personality type.

What personality type would you say that is?

 

[cloudsurf]

The personality type is self confident, charming, great sense of humour, making people feel at ease, a bad boy vibe.
Guys like Sharky , cream puff and Jal .

 

[jmioffe]

> self confident, charming, great sense of humour, making people feel at ease, a bad boy vibe.

True, that always works. But it's not the only kind that does. A brooding, tortured archetype can also draw female admirers: Heathcliff from Wuthering Heights, Morrissey, late Keanu Reeves, various gothy heroes.

But these guys are all tall and square-jawed, which goes more to the incel thesis that looks matter more than personality.

 

[jalimon]

What you don't need is an ego. Fear of rejection is the worst... Stop blaming others for your problem and fix your problem. Magic will happen.

I am short (ALL woman want's tall men) so I had to work on my sence of humor. That did the trick.

Also many guys are alone all their life because they only seek perfection. I have had great great sex with average around the corner girl nobody never notice

 

[That One Guy]

late Keanu Reeves

Why ''late" Keanu Reeves? He's not dead lol

 

[jmioffe]

Why ''late" Keanu Reeves? He's not dead lol

Lol, I mean his soulful later roles as opposed to his early "excellent!" Bill and Ted roles.

 

[EagerBeaver]

A brooding, tortured archetype can also draw female admirers: Heathcliff from Wuthering Heights, Morrissey, late Keanu Reeves, various gothy heroes.

Although I agree with your statement insofar as it applies to Morrissey, it should be noted that he is gay and likes cock, and I think most women see gay guys as like their female friends. A large number of women I have dated on SA have among their inner circle of friends a gay guy like Morrissey. They are seen as non-threatening, in touch with their feelings, thoughtful and artistic.

 

[ShyMan]

I am short (ALL woman want's tall men) so I had to work on my sence of humor. That did the trick.

You ain't short, Jalimon But I think your self-deprecating humor light up the hot ladies.

 

[jalimon]

You ain't short, Jalimon

True I ain't short when I go to mexico

Seriously you need to be above 5'8'' to really stand out. I always hated going to clubs because women were looking at me only to give me their empty glasses thinking I was a busboy haha

 

[donbusch]

Not really familiar w/ this Incel sub-culture but honestly, it’s kinda hard to believe that there r male involuntary celibates out there unless they’re in extreme poverty or living in Sex Prison USA/some other oddly sexually repressed country. Most parts of the world, there’s a red light district & paid sex is affordable & plentiful.

The Incel profiles don’t look like those of homeless poor people. Think they’re people in serious need of psychiatric help who happen to focus on women as the source of their problems. If circumstances were different, they could just as easily blamed aliens, big government or even bunnies for their problems. Wish the media wouldn’t sensationalize the incel aspect and focus on the fact that these tortured souls need some serious medical attention before they hurt others.

 

[Dave in Phoenix]

Incel attack in Phoenix shoots three before gun jams. Like Toronto incel with a machete.

Not long after the charges of terrorism in Toronto for an incel who killed a massage studio woman, this guy strikes with an AR-15 and 90 rounds in Phoenix area. In Toronto, the incel just had a machete but killed one and injured another woman. In Phoenix, the wild gun US, these nuts use an AR-15 or similar weapon.

Over 230 police officers responded to the shooting at huge Entertainment Mall in Glendale - a Western suburb of Phoenix.

The 20-year-old defendant live-streamed his attack after declaring he would be known as the Westgate gunman had few assets, so assigned a public defender.

From the bail hearing (see link for the video of it)

He hoped to shoot at least ten people to take out anger on society that women don't want him, a self- proclaimed incel. He was targeting couples, wanted them to feel the pain he feels and his extreme anger. He admitted his dark was coming out. He had been contemplating this for at least 3-5 years.

Tried to talk to friends not answer got him more anger wanted to go to a movie at Westgate Mall but was upset since it was closed.

Had 90 rounds he intended to use, but his gun jammed after shot three victims.

Defense asks for released before trial. Prosecutor asks for a $1m bond since very dangerous. The defense says $1m bond ridiculous high for a first-time offender since basically non-bailable since no way family can afford.

(Mother was reported distraught at the scene after was shown live video initially on Snapchat, but others have recorded it. The police asked the media not to show it since graphic and not to give him the fame he seeks. Twitter has now taken some posts of it down. I have seen it. Worst part holding a gun to women already shot next to a car in the parking lot and joking about killing her)

The judge agreed to a $1m bond. May 28th next prelim hearing at 8:30 AM

Other media comments:
Two of the victims apparently were a couple, including a 19-year-old man who suffered a life-threatening chest wound, the prosecutor said.

Hernandez told police he wasn't trying to kill anybody but wanted to inflict injuries, according to the probable cause statement.

"He wanted to gain some respect, and he felt that he had been bullied in his life," Glendale Police Sgt. Randy Stewart said during a press briefing.

Leiter said Hernandez became upset earlier Thursday when he couldn't get dinner at Panda Express for an unexplained reason and grew angrier after going to Westgate to see a movie and finding that theaters haven't yet reopened from coronavirus-related closure.

The link includes the about 15-minute bail hearing with the judge.

I note the prosecutor is the same as in the Phoenix Goddess Tempe case that I followed in Phoenix over five years in court much of the time. After I wasn't there for a while at a break, the judged joked she missed me lately! I was one of the few on the defense side.

I listed to the police tapes, and initial reports had three different descriptions of different shooters. The vast mall was in lockdown for many hours, and each store had customers and employees locked in back rooms until police cleared each area to be sure no more suspects or victims. One officer reported a men's room with lots of blood on the floor and stall but didn't seem related to any of the three known victims.

Massive police response with nearby Peoria as well as lots of Phoenix PD assisted in searches, closing down traffic on the many streets leading to the mall, etc.

Video of court bail hearing with the defendant:

Westgate shooting suspect's 'dark side was coming out,' prosecutor says

The Westgate shooting suspect has been thinking about inflicting mass casualties for years and might have done more damage if his gun hadn’t jammed, according to authorities.

ktar.com

 

[Vera.Reis]

This would be a great conversation on toxic masculinity and the harm it causes both men and women, but I don't think many people have the nuance to understand that not all masculinity is toxic and just get upset at the word. But without these valuable discussion on how we can instill better and healthier ways of being, things like this will just keep getting worse.

It sucks that I feel like I need to even make this disclaimer but here it is so people don't take it wrong - I love masculinity, the real and healthy kind - which is the kind that is strong, protecting and nurturing, that doesn't see femininity as a threat and ultimately doesn't subjugate femininity but complements it. Toxic masculinity is not real masculinity <3