The Joe.T Memorial Yankees Suck Thread for 2007

[eastender]

Making My Point - Talent

Where there are now over 100 players in baseball from the Dominican Republic, in 1959 there was Felipe Alou. Between 1960 and 1969, 23 more Dominicans made their debuts. Between 1990 and 1999, 135 Dominicans entered the major leagues. Between 2000 and 2007, another 140 made their debuts in the Show.

In 1960, there was one Venezuelan, Luis Aparicio. In 2007, 22 Venezuelans have appeared in major league games. No Japanese players appeared in 1960, eight in 2007. There are even more Cuban born players today than in 1960. Taiwan, zero in 1960, 4 in 2007. Korea, zero in 1960, 4 in 2007.
QUOTE]

Basically all that your numbers show is that athletes from outside the USA are playing baseball because that is their best economic option AND because MLB teams targeted certain countries in the Americas for baseball programs to get around the baseball draft. This impacted the inner city kids,black,white and hispanic in the USA.

The USA/Canada can afford the cost of youth / school football and hockey programs whereas the Dominican Republic, Venezuela, Asian countries etc either cannot or choose not to. Look at the number of non-traditional ethnic minority kids playing hockey and football in the inner cities today.

The total number of non - American MLB talent that you listed above is far short of 200 players. Since 1960 MLB requires 560 more players so where are the remaining 360 plus coming from?

Compare NFL,NHL,NBA roster and talent growth for the same era and you see that North American athletes are gravitating to these sports.

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

Basically all that your numbers show is that athletes from outside the USA are playing baseball because that is their best economic option

Partially, but mostly because it's fun and because they're good.

I see you're sticking to analysis by 40 man roster. The only word for that is: stupid. I won't engage further. I'm done.

 

[Joe.t]

Cano is a fabulous young player. He's considered by scouts to be the third best young second baseman in the AL, behind Pedroia of the Sox and Kinsler of Texas..

Only in your delusional dream world, these scouts must be sniffing the same glue that you are, Cano has been on fire since the allstar break and has been a human highlight film on defence all year, third my ass.

The Dead Sox are going up against one of the hottest pitchers in baseball and who has owned them this year, i think that it is safe to say down to 2.5 after tonight.

 

[Special K]

i think that it is safe to say down to 2.5 after tonight.

Who's pitching for the Yanks tonight? Oh yea, Mike "85mph fastball" Mussina. At worst it'll remain at 3.5 and the magic number will be down to 8.

 

[EagerBeaver]

I fail to see the link between the gap between the top and bottom teams’ won-lost records and your suggestion of declining performance.

There is considerable evidence to the contrary, to wit:

1. Athletes across the athletic spectrum are bigger, stronger, and better trained than at any time in human history. Where performance is measurable, records continue to be broken. Advances in sports medicine and attention to athletes’ nutrition contribute to the overall increase in athletic wellness, not only in baseball, but in other sports as well.

2. Ballplayers stay in shape year round and report to spring training in good condition, whereas in the past they would report fat and out of shape, after a winter of drinking beer and working other jobs, necessitated by the lower salaries of the pre-McNally-Messersmith era. Ballplayers annually spend millions of dollars on in-home training facilities and personal trainers.

3. Modern day teams employ far more skills coaches than did teams in prior years, as well as strength and conditioning coaches. Modern day clubhouses are outfitted with state-of-the art workout facilities where none of these existed in the past. Where informer times, players played cards and drank beer prior to games, today they spend time in the training facility in order to keep in better shape.

4. Modern day medicine returns players to action from injury much more quickly than in the past. Many injuries that would have ended careers 50 years ago are now surgically repaired with now-routine procedures.

John Kruk uttered the immortal line, “I ain’t no athlete lady, I’m a ballplayer.” Kruk was the last of a dying breed. Today’s ballplayers are athletes. They have to be to compete in the modern era.

I tend to agree with most of this. However, I also believe that while some of the pitchers in the major leagues are bigger and stronger than those in the 1960s era of baseball, there are a lot of guys who are throwers rather than pitchers. The classic examples of this are Kyle Farnsworth of the Yankees and Daniel Cabrera of the Orioles. Both can throw 99-100 mph, but do not know where the ball is going. Scouts tend to drool over guys like this, who throw hard, irrespective of their command, thinking it can be taught at the major league level. Unfortunately, there are loads of guys like Farnsworth and Cabrera who are merely the poster boys for this new breed of pseudo-pitcher/thrower. We are seeing more and more guys like this coming in at the major league level, but only the rare flamethrower, like Joba Chamberlain, actually knows where the ball is going when he delivers it.

Scouts tend to think less of guys like Ian Kennedy, who throw in the 91-92 mph range but clearly have an idea of what they are doing out on the mound.

Speaking of Mike Mussina, about 6 weeks ago - and before Mussina's horrendous troika of starts that got him temporarily yanked from the rotation - I heard Yankee special advisor Gene "Stick" Michael level some surprising criticism against Mussina in an interview with Mike & the Mad Dog on WFAN. Michael said that the Yankees have been pressuring Mussina to get into some kind of offseason training or workout program for the last few years and he has not listened to the Yankees. Michael felt that it was going to catch up to Mussina now that he is getting up there in years. If you look at Mussina physically he is not a big guy like Clemens or Schilling, so the tapering of his fastball has had a more dramatic effect on his productivity especially as we head late into the season. I personally believe his career with the Yankees will be over after this year, especially with the emergence of Hughes, Chamberlain and Kennedy as viable candidates for the rotation in 2008.

Speaking of Hughes, I heard on WFAN that Baseball America's top scout - a fellow by the name of Callas, I think - said that the Hughes that you will see in 2008 will be the real Hughes, and the Hughes we are seeing now is not the real Hughes due to a 3 mph loss on his fastball due to the hamstring and ankle injuries he suffered earlier this year and from which he has not fully recovered leg strength. Based on my own observations Hughes, while serviceable the last 3 starts, is not hitting 97 mph plus consistently as he was in the 6.1 inning no hitter vs. Texas earlier this year. The Yankees are not in a position to shut him down and he may even be the #4 starter in the postseason, but I am expecting much bigger things from him in 2008.

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

I tend to agree with most of this. However, I also believe that while some of the pitchers in the major leagues are bigger and stronger than those in the 1960s era of baseball, there are a lot of guys who are throwers rather than pitchers.

There have always been throwers of this sort, Beav. The first one who pops to mind is Rex Barney, of whom it was said "he'd be in the Hall of Fame if the plate was high and outside." Barney pitched for the Montreal Royals and Brooklyn Dodgers, throwing a no-no against the Giants in 1948. He was also the Orioles public address announcer for the last 25 years of his life. Barney allowed a miniscule 474 hits in his 597 major league innings. He also walked 410.

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

I personally believe his career with the Yankees will be over after this year, especially with the emergence of Hughes, Chamberlain and Kennedy as viable candidates for the rotation in 2008.

Speaking of Hughes, I heard on WFAN that Baseball America's top scout - a fellow by the name of Callas, I think - said that the Hughes that you will see in 2008 will be the real Hughes, and the Hughes we are seeing now is not the real Hughes due to a 3 mph loss on his fastball due to the hamstring and ankle injuries he suffered earlier this year and from which he has not fully recovered leg strength. Based on my own observations Hughes, while serviceable the last 3 starts, is not hitting 97 mph plus consistently as he was in the 6.1 inning no hitter vs. Texas earlier this year. The Yankees are not in a position to shut him down and he may even be the #4 starter in the postseason, but I am expecting much bigger things from him in 2008.

I doubt that Mussina will be gone next year for two reasons. First, he's under contract at $11 M, though if they're willing to eat $3-4 of that, they should be able to deal him. I also doubt they'll be willing to go into the season trusting their year to three young pitchers.

My sense is that Hughes will start the season in the minors. I think it was Jim Callis who suggested that he probably could use 10-15 starts on the farm, both to rebuild his confidence and get fully healthy. He is, after all, 20.

 

[EagerBeaver]

But doesn't it seem like there are more throwers than ever? Isn't this one reason why pitching ERAs have soared? I watch Daniel Cabrera pitch and he scares me. The guy is 6'9", throws 100 mph and has no control whatsoever, no apparent plan of what to do. He is going to hurt someone. I saw a few games where he almost beaned guys. If there is ever going to be another Tony Conigliaro type beaning, which I hope there won't be, my money would be on Cabrera throwing the pitch that does it.

I am aware there have been guys like this in the past, but now they are bigger, stronger, throw harder, and are wilder.

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

But doesn't it seem like there are more throwers than ever?

I really can't say. Dunno.

Isn't this one reason why pitching ERAs have soared?

ERAs have soared for a number of reasons. At the top of my list, is the discovery that lighter bats and greater bat speed trumps heavy dense bats. Add to that the fact the use of maple for bat wood. The bat really jumps of maple; closer to aluminum than to ash in action. Next on my list is the new ballparks, designed, with the exception of Petco, for offense, smaller dimensions, less foul territory. There are a number of other reasons.

 

[EagerBeaver]

I think it was Jim Callis who suggested that he probably could use 10-15 starts on the farm, both to rebuild his confidence and get fully healthy. He is, after all, 20.

On WFAN today they quoted Callis as saying that we will all see "the real Phil Hughes" with the Yankees next year, 2008. He said that a healthy Hughes will be much more dominant than the Hughes we are seeing now.

That being said, in the last 3 starts Hughes has given the Yankees 6, 6, and 5.2 innings, and 2, 1 and 2 earned runs respectively. As long as he does that he will stay in the rotation. With the offense that the Yankees have he will win a lot of games putting up those kinds of numbers.

I disagree with you and I believe that barring injury, Hughes, Chamberlain, and Kennedy will join Pettite and Wang in the 2008 starting rotation. I believe Mussina's contract will be eaten, UNLESS he finally does what the Yankees have told him to do for years which is offseason strength and conditioning. If Mussina is compliant in that regard, they will give him a shot in spring training. Maybe seeing Kennedy outpitch his ass in the past month will give Mussina the necessary motivation to get his 38 year old ass on the treadmill and in the weight room. I personally hope he does it and gives the Yankees another option, but I think the more likely scenario is that his contract or some portion thereof will be eaten.

 

[korbel]

Only in your delusional dream world, these scouts must be sniffing the same glue that you are, Cano has been on fire since the allstar break and has been a human highlight film on defence all year, third my ass.

Hello Joe. t,

Credibility...it's something you should protect. "On fire"..."lights out"..."unhitable"..."human highlight film"..."Cy Wang"...all these superlatives and so many more only for the Yankers. How can anyone take you seriously even when coincidence favors you if the only good things you say are all for your team. I believe if Steinboner put 9 pigs in pinstipes you would still use your infamous repertoire of superlatives to say they were the greatest players ever.

Boring,

Korbel

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

How can anyone take you seriously...

Um, who takes Joe.T seriously, beyond, possibly, Rearender and Mama T?

 

[EagerBeaver]

Korbel,

I assume you mean for arguing with the umpire for calling that 3-2 pitch that was a foot high and a foot outside a ball?

 

[Joe.t]

Easy on Gagne Korbie if anybody is to blame it's Fuckona for putting Gagne in there with the game on the line, didn't a very astute baseball fan who posts in this thread say about 2 weeks ago that Gagne should only be used when the game is toast or when it is in hand, blame the manager for this one.

Who's pitching for the Yanks tonight? Oh yea, Mike "85mph fastball" Mussina. At worst it'll remain at 3.5 and the magic number will be down to 8.

Hmmmm.... I think that it is more like Mike "3 hit, 7 shutout innings" Mussina.

Down to 1.5 after tomorrow as Buchholz gets bombed.

 

[korbel]

Hmmmm.... I think that it is more like Mike "3 hit, 7 shutout innings" Mussina.

Down to 1.5 after tomorrow as Buchholz gets bombed.

Hello Joe. t,

That's why I love my little clown so much. You don't predict at all. You just keep saying the same thing every day and let the possibility of coincidence take it's course. Only a kook would say Buchholz will get "bombed". Thanks for cheering me up with a BIG laugh...bwahahahahaha.

Huge HUGGGGGGGGG!

Korbel

 

[Special K]

Must say I'm quite disgusted, not only in Gagne but Francoma as well. At least he should have had Papelbon warming at the beginning of the 8th even though Gagne got 2 quick outs. There's was more than enough time for him to be warmed and ready to go after Gagne's breakdown.

 

[EagerBeaver]

SK,

I am the last guy to be a defender of Francoma, but with Okajima running out of gas, the man has to find out who he can use in the 8th inning to get to Papelbon. He needed to find out, definitively, whether Gagne can be trusted to get the game to Papelbon. I think he left Gagne in there because that 8th inning was a simulation of what might be expected in a playoff game. Would you rather have Francoma find out that Gagne is a bust now, or in the playoffs? From what I can see, the Red Sox need to figure out their 7th and 8th inning situation for the playoffs, and they need to do it quickly.

Note that with the Tigers now 4.5 games behind the Yankees and (theoretically) 7 behind the Red Sox for the wild card, all the Red Sox are playing for is playoff seeding at this time. And if things ended today they would be playing the Angels 1st round. So Francoma should be thought of as a mad scientist who is trying to brew the perfect concoction or recipe for the 7th and 8th innings in the playoffs. It will be interesting to see what he comes up with.

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

For the most part I agree with your assessment, Beav. Problem I have is that he left Gagne in there too long. Okajima, who hadn't pitched since Friday, was an option, though my sense is that he needs to be used sparingly in order to get him refreshed for the playoffs. Gagne should not have pitched to Adams. At that point, Francoma should have gone to either Papelbon or Timlin, who has been fabulous the second half of the season.

Rotoworld posted the following. I totally agree: Terry Francona: good manager of people, lousy manager of baseball games. It's simply ridiculous to bring Gagne into a one-run game in the eighth and not have anyone up behind him. With two outs, Gagne walked Frank Thomas and then gave up a hard grounder for a single. Two more walks followed, the second pushing in the tying run. Even then, Gagne was allowed to stay in, and he allowed a two-run double to Russ Adams. He only got out of the inning because the third runner was thrown out at the plate. Gagne threw just 13 of his 32 pitches for strikes. Meanwhile, Manny Delcarmen, he of the 2.37 ERA, has been asked to get two outs in six days. Jonathan Papelbon has pitched once in six days. Hideki Okajima hasn't pitched in four days. Francona has played a large role in blowing two of the last five games, and his bullpen management has gone from good to abysmal since the day Gagne was acquired.

 

[Doc Holliday]

When i saw Gagne head onto the field in the 8th, i got up & cheered loudly! When i noticed he had no control & yet, Francona left him out there, i began to feel sorry for him. I really did. This is a pitcher who's totally lost his confidence! And when Russ Adams made his way to the plate, i was certain Paplebon would come running out of the bullpen. But no!! To my great surprise & shock, Francona still went with Gagne in this crucial at-bat!!!

Say what you want about Gagne, but Francona is the one who lost the game last night by sticking with him batter after batter. It was obvious from the first couple of batters on that Gagne didn't have it last night. And yet, no Okajima, no Paplebon. I was baffled! I was almost as surprised to see AJ Burnett coming out for the 9th. How many pitches did he throw last night anyway? 120? Must have been close.....he pitched great, though. Gotta tip my hat off to him.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Gagne is a dumb FUCK!!!!

Francona was the one who was the DUMB FUCK. Gagne did his best....but it was Francona who refused to pull him when it was obvious to the world that he had no control & poor stuff last night.

By the way...is it me, or did JD Drew seem to misplay that ball hit by Russ Adams last night?