The Joe.T Memorial Yankees Suck Thread for 2007

[rumpleforeskiin]

By the way...is it me, or did JD Drew seem to misplay that ball hit by Russ Adams last night?

I wondered about that myself. The ball was a rocket shot, however, and Drew wasn't particularly close to catching it so even if he had gotten a better read on it, he might not have caught it anyway.

 

[Joe.t]

Holy crap!! something unbelievable just happened, rumples and the Doc are agreeing with me, either i am dreaming or i am still high from the mushrooms that i took last night!!!!

 

[EagerBeaver]

My feeling is that if a team has basically clinched the playoffs, but their 7th/8th inning set up situation for the playoffs is unsettled, the manager of the team has a duty to put all candidate set up men for the playoff roster through difficult situations, meaning leaving them in to get out of their own jams, even at the cost of a brutal loss or two. As I said above, at this point all the Red Sox stand to lose is home field advantage and playoff seeding. A playoff berth is not at stake. Therefore if Gagne had been taken out in favor of Papelbon, Francoma would not have learned anything as to whether Gagne will be functional in getting out of his own jams in a playoff situation. Now, however, Francoma has learned something. Perhaps he will now turn to Delcarmen to be used in the role that the Red Sox had envisioned for Gagne.

The reason why Joe Torre yanked Joba Chamberlain with 2 outs in the 8th inning and brought in Rivera to get a 1.1 inning save on Sunday night against the Red Sox is that the Yankees had to win that game. If the Yankees were in the same situation as the Red Sox, 7 games ahead for the last playoff spot, then Torre may have left Joba in to give him the experience of pitching out of a jam and seeing how he could function in that situation. However, the Yankees simply did not have that luxury. That's why Joba came out Sunday and Gagne stayed in last night.

The Red Sox have the luxury of being able to blow a few games in the next week and a half. Worst case scenario is they lose the division, which may end up being a reward if they get to play the Indians which I feel is a weaker team than the Angels.

With this in mind, either Gagne will be viewed as a functional set up man for the playoffs, or not. The determination must be made, it must be made fairly based on opportunities being given in certain situations, and the answer is either "yes", he can do it, or "no", he can not. There are no maybes. I suspect Gagne will be given one more chance to set up Papelbon and if he demonstrates the same kind of appalling ball-strike ratio, then the Red Sox will really have to give Delcarmen a long look as a set up guy in the 8th inning and hope for the best with Okajima. So basically I feel as though you guys should give Francoma a pass on last night. Gagne was asked to perform in the role for which he was acquired, and he failed to do so. That's the bottom line. The loss of one game pails in significance to the much bigger picture and question of the 7th/8th inning for the Red Sox in the playoffs. What looked like a big strength on August 1 is now looking like a huge question mark.

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

Agree totally, Beav. Another ignored piece of the puzzle last night is Mike Timlin. Timlin, who has been used judiciously, has only appeared in 23 games since the All Star break. Of those 23, 21 appearances were scoreless. His ERA since the break is 2.03 and his WHIP .86. He's been nothing short of brilliant and, other than the fact that he's not likely to be used 4 times a week, is probably the Sox best option for set up, given his experience and results.

I'm not concerned about the Sox pen. I am concerned about Francona's handling of the pen.

There's more at stake than simply home field advantage. The best record, which the Sox now hold by .5 game, gets to choose playoff format. One format would allow Los Anaheim or Cleveland to use Lackey/Escobar or Carmona/Sabathia in 4 of the five games, the other would force them to go with four starters in the five games. Given that the Sox' strength in SP is their depth, the latter option would be vastly preferable.

 

[phill]

What do you mean by the best record chooses the playoff format ?

And by the way, I believe that the problem with Gagné is that he cannot rely on his fastball anymore. Therefore, he now has to aim at the corners, thus pitching a lot more balls than strikes. A change-up will be as effective as your fastball can be.

When he was in L.A., Gagné always pitched ahead in the count. Today, it is the contrary. He becomes a lot more vulnerable.

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

What do you mean by the best record chooses the playoff format ?

And by the way, I believe that the problem with Gagné is that he cannot rely on his fastball anymore. Therefore, he now has to aim at the corners, thus pitching a lot more balls than strikes. A change-up will be as effective as your fastball can be.

When he was in L.A., Gagné always pitched ahead in the count. Today, it is the contrary. He becomes a lot more vulnerable.

There are two different playoff formats, basically designed to maximize TV exposure. One takes a day longer than the other and will allow teams to use only three starters.

Actually, Gagne has always relied on the change as he did last night for the first two hitters, whom he retired. Once he fell behind the third batter, we never saw the change again.

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

Interesting piece by Yankee fan Joe Sheehan in BP today. Basically, what he says is that the Sox are playing like a team preparing for the playoffs while the Yankees are playing like a team trying to make them. Considering the fact that they're both in, Sheehan says, it doesn't matter who wins the division and the Yankees will pay for this in the long run if they don't accept that fact.

"It’s hard to close even a 2 ½-game gap on a good team with 12 days left in the season. Even if it was necessary to do so, it would be a difficult task. In this case, it’s not; whatever benefits—home-field advantage, schedule choice, comfort—are gained by winning the division versus being the Wild Card aren’t generous enough to warrant playing the last week and change as if it mattered. Look at how Terry Francona has managed his squad all month, in the knowledge that his team is going to October. He’s been resting players all around the roster, diddling with his rotation, and trying experiments like "let’s see how many batters Eric Gagne can walk in one inning."

It would behoove Joe Torre to start doing this as well. The Yankees are up five games in the loss column on the Tigers, with a magic number of seven for the wild card. If form holds through the weekend and the Yankees’ magic number reaches three or so, Torre needs to worry less about seeding and more about making sure his aging team is ready to go on October 2. Alex Rodriguez has missed two games all year, and none since August 8. Robinson Cano hasn’t missed a game since May 6. Jorge Posada has played his usual 130-odd games behind the plate; a couple of extra days off next week couldn’t hurt. I can’t quantify the effects of rest on a player’s performance, but I can say that the cost of doing so—possibly ending up as the wild card versus winning the division—is essentially zero."

 

[korbel]

Correct

Francona was the one who was the DUMB FUCK. Gagne did his best....but it was Francona who refused to pull him when it was obvious to the world that he had no control & poor stuff last night.

By the way...is it me, or did JD Drew seem to misplay that ball hit by Russ Adams last night?

Hello Doc,

Okay, I have calmed down a bit now. I deleted two of my rage-inspired posts and I am much closer to being rational.

Well Doc, you are right that the mistake started with Francona. With a 1 run lead against Burnett I would never have put Gagne in there. Frankly, the night Jeter hit the home run I was perplexed that Francona did not put Buchhholz in for a couple of innings. In this latest case it is just unfathomable with the race closing that Francona used Gagne. However, the decision to put Gagne in was not the point of no return. The decision itself did not make the loss. That element was provided by Gagne and his ineptitude. Gagne's most recent outings were not bad at all. We even had Joe t. saying, though with typical sarcasm, his innings against the Yankers were good. Given his more recent performances Francona had every right to believe things would turn out fine. But, when a pitcher of Gagne's previous caliber can't throw strikes then he has failed not the manager, and what is unforgivable is walking home a run when the odds on getting a hit anytime always favor the pitcher by at least 65% for even the best of hitters. No I would not have put him in. But it is Gagne who failed us ultimately. The real shame is we had Burnett beat until Gagne just gave the run away instead of forcing a swing where anything could have happened. To top it off he didn't even throw his change-up.

The dumb F,

Korbel

 

[EagerBeaver]

"It’s hard to close even a 2 ½-game gap on a good team with 12 days left in the season. Even if it was necessary to do so, it would be a difficult task. In this case, it’s not; whatever benefits—home-field advantage, schedule choice, comfort—are gained by winning the division versus being the Wild Card aren’t generous enough to warrant playing the last week and change as if it mattered. Look at how Terry Francona has managed his squad all month, in the knowledge that his team is going to October. He’s been resting players all around the roster, diddling with his rotation, and trying experiments like "let’s see how many batters Eric Gagne can walk in one inning." It would behoove Joe Torre to start doing this as well. The Yankees are up five games in the loss column on the Tigers, with a magic number of seven for the wild card. If form holds through the weekend and the Yankees’ magic number reaches three or so, Torre needs to worry less about seeding and more about making sure his aging team is ready to go on October 2. Alex Rodriguez has missed two games all year, and none since August 8. Robinson Cano hasn’t missed a game since May 6. Jorge Posada has played his usual 130-odd games behind the plate; a couple of extra days off next week couldn’t hurt. I can’t quantify the effects of rest on a player’s performance, but I can say that the cost of doing so—possibly ending up as the wild card versus winning the division—is essentially zero."

The other side of the coin is "it ain't over til it's over." In 1964, the Philadelphia Phillies had a 6.5 lead with 12 games to play. Gene Mauch began to fuck around with the pitching staff, and what happened was a 10 game losing streak, culminating with the famous "Philly Phold" - getting swept by the St. Louis Cardinals and Bob Gibson, who would ultimately win the pennant by 1 game over Philly, and then go on and win the World Series vs. the Yankees.

With the Tigers losing today, my sense is that Torre will wait until next week before he begins resting guys and fucking around as Sheehan is suggesting he should do. It's even possible the Yankees could clinch the wild card by the end of the weekend, if the Yankees win tonight and then take 3 of 4 from the Jays. If that happens, I am sure Torre will fuck around next week much like Francona did last night. He has to, especially since I do not believe the Yankees are decided on who a potential #4 playoff starter might be at this point in time.

It should be noted that Torre has already decided to go with a 6 man rotation to give each of the starters extra rest, something Sheehan does not mention in his analysis.

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

In this latest case it is just unfathomable with the race closing that Francona used Gagne.

Korbel, read my last post. THERE IS NO RACE. The Sox magic number to make the playoffs is 3. Francona's job is making sure his players are well-rested and that his pitching staff is set. He needs to see if he can use Gagne to set up. He needs to see if Okajima can return to form with some rest.

At this point, his 7th inning man should be Delcarmen. Timlin in the 8th. Paps in the ninth. With Oki, Snyder, and Lopez, there isn't a better bullpen in baseball. With Lugo, Crisp, and Pedroia, you have two possible Gold Gloves. There isn't a better middle defense in baseball. That's what wins in the Post Season.

 

[korbel]

Korbel, read my last post. THERE IS NO RACE. The Sox magic number to make the playoffs is 3. Francona's job is making sure his players are well-rested and that his pitching staff is set. He needs to see if he can use Gagne to set up. He needs to see if Okajima can return to form with some rest.

At this point, his 7th inning man should be Delcarmen. Timlin in the 8th. Paps in the ninth. With Oki, Snyder, and Lopez, there isn't a better bullpen in baseball. With Lugo, Crisp, and Pedroia, you have two possible Gold Gloves. There isn't a better middle defense in baseball. That's what wins in the Post Season.

Hello Rumples,

No disrespect intended, but this statement focusing on just making the playoffs could imply you are conceding the division. Yeah making the playoffs is fine. I concede nothing.

As for Francona wanting to "see if he can use Gagne to set up"...we've seen too much. I have also thought of the angle you propose, but enough already. I have no idea what happned to him, but he is almost completely unreliable...and that has been abundantly proven.

Cheers,

Korbel

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

Where did I suggest conceding the division. What I said is that it's more important to get everybody healthy and the roster set for the playoffs than to win the division.

 

[EagerBeaver]

There are two different playoff formats, basically designed to maximize TV exposure. One takes a day longer than the other and will allow teams to use only three starters.

I am not in favor of gimmicky formats. Personally, I believe the regular season should be shortened back to 154 games, and the 1st round of the playoffs should be best 4 of 7 in the traditional 2-3-2 format. I also believe that the pitching mound should be raised back to the pre-1969 height. I would balance this rule change by allowing corked bats within certain defined parameters. Finally, I would enact a "pitch clock", requiring the pitcher to unleash a pitch within a certain designated period of time or else a ball is called automatically. Sort of like a shot clock in basketball. Similarly, I would allow each batter to step out of the batter's box only once per at bat, otherwise a strike is called automatically. These latter rules will speed up the games. Finally, award second base for a hit batsmen. This will seriously deter beanball incidents and encourage control. If a runner is on first, he moves to third. Watch how many HBPs there are once that rule change goes into effect.

These are the Eager Rules, not to be confused with the Joba Rules.

 

[eastender]

Bring Back Ron Hunt

I am not in favor of gimmicky formats. Personally, I believe the regular season should be shortened back to 154 games, and the 1st round of the playoffs should be best 4 of 7 in the traditional 2-3-2 format. I also believe that the pitching mound should be raised back to the pre-1969 height. I would balance this rule change by allowing corked bats within certain defined parameters. Finally, I would enact a "pitch clock", requiring the pitcher to unleash a pitch within a certain designated period of time or else a ball is called automatically. Sort of like a shot clock in basketball. Similarly, I would allow each batter to step out of the batter's box only once per at bat, otherwise a strike is called automatically. These latter rules will speed up the games. Finally, award second base for a hit batsmen. This will seriously deter beanball incidents and encourage control. If a runner is on first, he moves to third. Watch how many HBPs there are once that rule change goes into effect.

These are the Eager Rules, not to be confused with the Joba Rules.

EB,

Interesting points BUT i doubt that people would pay to see the return of the "Ron Hunt Skill" especially if it is worth a double.

The height of the mound is an interesting debate. The Pythagorean Theorem shows that the lower mound is a marginal advantage to the pitcher since his release point is slightly closer to the front of the plate. The impact on pitching of a higher mound is an interesting debate as well. How well would modern pitchers adjust to such an upward move is not a question that is easy to answer?

The "pitch clock" goes against the timeless element in baseball. Also I strongly suspect that strategies would arise to impact on the pitcher.Limiting the batter to one exit from the box might produce the same problem.

I would not tamper with the playing rules BUT I would look at changing some of the draft rules - allow the trading of draft choices, create a universal entry draft, allow minor leagu players the right to "opt out" from an organization after three seasons.

 

[rumpleforeskiin]

Actually, the higher the mound, the fewer runs scored. The mound was gradually raised until it hit the level it reached by 1968, when fewer runs were scored than since the dead ball era. I don't know about pitchers being farther away, but the higher mound allowed the pitcher get more torque in his lower body. Also, with the higher mound, the ball came in at a more downward angle.

The format isn't a gimmick. It's designed to get more prime time games.

What I'd like to see is the leagues each expanded by one team. Then I'd like to see each league split into two division of 8. Four teams to the post-season. Obviously, this will never happen as it would create a drastic drop in post-season revenue.

There is a rule that a pitcher has to deliver a pitch within 20 seconds of receiving the ball back from the catcher. It's been in the book for several years now and the next time it's enforced will be the first.

 

[EagerBeaver]

EB, Interesting points BUT i doubt that people would pay to see the return of the "Ron Hunt Skill" especially if it is worth a double.

There is a rule that you must try to get out of the way of a pitch which I saw enforced against Jorge Posada of the Yankees even though he made a modest effort to avoid getting hit. Posada was hit, but not awarded first base.

Regarding the 20 second pitch clock, I have never seen it enforced.

 

[Special K]

It happened this year to another Yankee I believe who made absolutely NO ATTEMPT whatsoever to avoid the pitch. I can't recall who it was but I'm thinking Mientkiewicz for some reason.

 

[eastender]

Basic Math

Actually, the higher the mound, the fewer runs scored. The mound was gradually raised until it hit the level it reached by 1968, when fewer runs were scored than since the dead ball era. I don't know about pitchers being farther away, but the higher mound allowed the pitcher get more torque in his lower body. Also, with the higher mound, the ball came in at a more downward angle.QUOTE]

Rumples,

Do the basic Pythagorean math.Mike Marshall raised this point when the the mound was lowered after 1968.

You have a right triangle. The base of the mound (pitching rubber) is a 60' 6" constant from the front of the plate. As the mound(pitching rubber) is raised perpendicularly from perfectly flat to whatever height you want the hypotenuse lengthens.So the lower,the mound the closer the pitcher is to the front of the plate when the ball is released.Assuming that each pitcher
maintains the length of his stride from either mound he would still be closer to the plate at the time of release than he would be from a higher mound.

As for the higher mound allowing the pitcher to get more torque,thank you for making my point that previously you had been rather dismissive about.

Effectively the pitcher throws more(torque) with his hips and legs from a higher mound. Thereby less pressure is put on his arm(elbow,shoulder,rotator cuff) which reduces arm injuries - my point.

Ball coming in at a downward angle is a function of the release point. With a traditional motion that has become the norm with the low mound because it maximizes speed and torque you will get a greater downward angle from the higher mound since the release point is higher.

Before 1969 more pitchers threw "side arm" or 3/4 which reduces stress on the arm and you had more pitchers - Juan Marichal, Luis Tiant who had different motions and release points. With the lower mound the ability to generate torque and downward movement with alternate deliveries is reduced.

 

[Joe.t]

Good morning Dead Sox fans, a big hug and a huge kiss goes out from Joe.t to the Boston bullpen who are peaking just at the right time and to Terry "fucked up" Francona who gets my vote for dumb ass manager of the year award.

PS- Papelbon i love ya man!!!

1978 all over again!!!.

 

[Joe.t]

Could someone please explain what the hell is Carlos Pena who has 40 hr and 112 rbi's doing playing for the Devil Rays, wasn't he a Red Sucks player just last year? is this another blunder by jr (A.k.A Epstoned), I swear I really think that the only reason that jr is the GM is because he is gay and is doing a good job of blowing his gay lover(Henry), Lugo, Matsuzaka, Crisp, Drew, Gagne, Pena, how many fuck ups can the man make and he still has the top job, I am very suspicious.