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The Official 2016-17 NHL thread

Doc Holliday

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That is why Patrick Roy is out of job, he wanted to interfere in the choice of player. Old friend Sakic said fuck off.

This is actually true and i wasn't sure if i should bother mention it. When Roy signed his contract with the Avalanche, there was a clause in his contract that he needed to have a say in every player movement decisions. In other words, the title that he had other than coach stipulated that he was somewhat of an assistant-GM. One thing that people didn't know at the time was that during his years being coach/GM of the Ramparts, Roy would tell fellow coaches around the league that it was his belief that a coach should be hired first by an organization, and then he should get to chose the GM of his choosing and have authority over him. So when he left the Ramparts for the NHL, he pretty much got his wish. The GM was hired after Roy got the job. I can't even remember the GM's name, but he worked for both Roy and Sakic, the team president. It didn't work out as good as Roy thought it would. Roy would use his excessive power to embarrass and hurt players he didn't like. The GM couldn't really tell him to get off the player' back since he was practically working for him. Roy also made it impossible for his hand-picked assistants (e.g. Andre Tourigny) to work with him. He was unbearable and eventually they wound up leaving the organization. Sakic eventually had no choice but to get rid of Patrick Roy for the good of the organization.
 

tiga

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You are probably right that P. Roy was unbearable to work with as Coach/GM but he was not fired; he quit.
 

EagerBeaver

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You are probably right that P. Roy was unbearable to work with as Coach/GM but he was not fired; he quit.

Tiga is right, Roy quit because he didn't have input into choosing his players - discussed in this Denver Post article:

http://www.denverpost.com/2016/08/11/patrick-roy-out-colorado-avalanche-coach/

To understand the true dynamics of Coach-GM relationships in the NHL, I recommend reading Phil Esposito's book "Thunder and Lightning", and in particular pages 191-202, which are devoted to discussing his relationship with former NY Rangers coach Michel Bergeron, whom Esposito rips as constantly meddling in and second guessing player personnel decisions. For one thing, Esposito was infuriated when Bergeron announced to the press he would no longer play Esposito acquisition John Ogrodnick- a player Bergeron wanted Esposito to get. This open GM criticism is similar to what Roy did at his press conference in April, discussed in the Post Article, in which he noted the lack of draft choices was hurting the Avalanche badly.

When Esposito fired back at Bergeron in the press that if the team did not win it was on Bergeron, Bergeron came with his agent to talk to Espo. Here is what Espo says about that on page 194:"When he came to see me, he brought his agent with him. I said, "are you kidding me? I got to deal with an agent - for a coach? I threw the agent out". "Listen", I told Michel, "coach the team and shut the fuck up!" Those were my exact words. "You make me laugh. I let you pick the players and decide who you're going to play. I don't tell you who to play. But if you're wrong, you're responsible for our not winning."

Also on page 194, Esposito said Bergeron told him to acquire Michel Goulet. Here is what he says:"Bergeron said to me, he could take the place of everybody on this godddamn team." Esposito told Bergeron that he couldn't acquire Goulet because he was too expensive to trade for.

On page 196, Espo discusses Bergeron refusing to play Don Maloney and this: "Bergy, meanwhile, kept bugging me to get him a big center." So Esposito traded Don Maloney for Carey Wilson to pacify Bergeron.

Next, they fought about what to do with the aging Marcel Dionne, who was slow to recover from an injury. On page 197: "Bergy didn't want him on the team any more. He would tell me to get rid of him. I'd say, Marcel stays for as long as he wants."

On page 198, Esposito accuses Bergeron of succumbing to the pressure of coaching in NYC, a pressure Bergeron created by constantly talking to the press behind Espo's back. According to Espo, due to the pressure, Bergeron developed coffee and smoking addictions.

The last straw was when the Rangers went into a losing streak and Bergeron told the press that Espo should have acquired Michel Goulet. Esposito informed Rangers President Jack Miller of his decision to fire Bergeron and offered to coach the team. Miller agreed and raised Esposito's salary from $400,000 to $500,000. Espo described the firing of Bergeron on page 201:

"I am making a change."
"A change in what?"
"In coaching," I said. "I am replacing you. Right now. I warned you twice not to go behind my back. The first time I told you if you did it againn you would be fired. The second time you did it they would not let me fire you. But when you did it the third time, three strikes and you're out."
"Are you crazy!" he said. "You can't do that. What's the matter with you, Phil?" He then asked, "who is going to coach?"
"I am."
"Oh yeah, you're going to coach," he said with great sarcasm. "Good luck."

Esposito repeatedly accuses Bergeron of inappopriate bias/favoritism towards French-speaking players and Assistant Coaches and Esposito told Bergeron all his French speaking assistants were also being fired. It is clear that this bias deeply disturbed Esposito.

This is the reality of Coach/GM relationships in the NHL. So this fantasy that Coaches do not have input in player personnel decisions and keep their mouths shot dutifully at all times is just that, a fantasy.
 

Sol Tee Nutz

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Well said and completely agree. When i read STN and EB posts i literally :lol: , actually it was more like :pound:


Many before the draft were saying Laine was the better to pick, I did not expect a Leafs fan to agree with this even though the points and playing ability show this.
 

EagerBeaver

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Many before the draft were saying Laine was the better to pick, I did not expect a Leafs fan to agree with this even though the points and playing ability show this.

It's 50/50 between Matthews and Laine as to who gets Rookie of The Year according to most experts. As of today Laine wins the Calder Trophy easily as he has an NHL leading 16 goals and 23 points and Matthews has just 19 points. That is the bottom line, all the rest is bullshit. "Potential" doesn't mean jackshit in awards, its production and the bottom line on stats. Nobody cares about anything else.

Make no mistake- Lamiorello has second thoughts about not taking Laine and Babcock has second thoughts about not bugging Lamoriello more aggressively to do so a la Michel Bergeron with Phil Esposito to get a big centerman. It's painful when these guys read the stats and see Laine's face on top for goals and for points among rookies.
 

lgna69xxx

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Boyzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!

Let's revisit this debate in ten years and see who had the better career between Matthews and Laine, barring injury i'll take the more complete player with the higher hockey IQ in AM, the same guy 99% of the scouts, you know the scouts right, they are the experts paid to know their stuff, ageed who the #1 pick was.

EB, 19 points to 23 with almost sixty games to go eh? a week from now it is entirely possible AM has more points. Both are future superstars but give me god given talent WITH a higher hockey IQ and VISION and the more complete player anyday of thw week. AM hands down!

Go Leafs Go!
 

EagerBeaver

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I agree that it will take years before we can assess the picks and clearly neither of these guys is a bust. But as of today, meaning right now, Patrik Laine will win the Calder Trophy as top rookie. Could things change? Of course they can. But a rookie player is leading the NHL goals and I don't even know when was the last time that happened or if it ever happened.

Here is an article that appeared in the Chicago Tribune yesterday on Laine, saying his booming slapshot has opened eyes all over the NHL and pronouncing him odds on favorite to win the Calder Trophy:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sport...-jets-blackhawks-spt-1204-20161203-story.html
 

Sol Tee Nutz

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99% picked Mathews? Far from it, more like 50/50. I am guessing a few teams would have picked Laine first over Mathews.
 

EagerBeaver

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99% picked Mathews? Far from it, more like 50/50. I am guessing a few teams would have picked Laine first over Mathews.

If there was a draft do-over today, over half the NHL teams would take Laine first, possibly even including Toronto. However, draft do-overs are not allowed in sports. The teams have to live with the decisions they made, and if they can't, they can take Alka Seltzer.
 

lgna69xxx

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You guys are off your rockers lol.............You ALWAYS take the big skilled centre over a sniper winger, besides the Leafs have their sniper already in Mitchell Marner who very well could win the calder himself, William Nylander also has a great shot to win the award this year.
If there was a draft do-over today, over half the NHL teams would take Laine first, possibly even including Toronto. However, draft do-overs are not allowed in sports. The teams have to live with the decisions they made, and if they can't, they can take Alka Seltzer.
 

Doc Holliday

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You guys are off your rockers lol.............You ALWAYS take the big skilled centre over a sniper winger, besides the Leafs have their sniper already in Mitchell Marner who very well could win the calder himself, William Nylander also has a great shot to win the award this year.

I absolutely agree with this statement. The Leafs have four extremely promising rookies if you include Nikita Zaitsev, whom i find fabulous. And both Zac Hyman and Connor Brown have impressed me tremendously.

Last night Auston Matthews scored his fourth goal in four games and was tremendous all night long! What a player he is, and what a fantastic player he will be in just a few years. Wow!!!
 

lgna69xxx

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Agreed, AM was the unanimous choice of nhl scouts to go #1 at the draft for a reason, he is gonna be that damn good. Btw AM has scored 5 goals in his last 5 games while playing an exceptional 2way game as well. Reminds me of Kopitar and Toews out there.
I absolutely agree with this statement. The Leafs have four extremely promising rookies if you include Nikita Zaitsev, whom i find fabulous. And both Zac Hyman and Connor Brown have impressed me tremendously.

Last night Auston Matthews scored his fourth goal in four games and was tremendous all night long! What a player he is, and what a fantastic player he will be in just a few years. Wow!!!
 

Sol Tee Nutz

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p.s. As for Connor McDavid, he won't win the scoring championship while playing on a team that sucks that much.

The Oilers have their ups and downs, as an Oiler fan we learned to be patient, we also learned not to poke fun at other teams when ours were worse, makes you look like an idiot.
Just sayin... :)
 

lgna69xxx

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How many times have the oilers beat the Leafs this season? Just sayin :yo:
The Oilers have their ups and downs, as an Oiler fan we learned to be patient, we also learned not to poke fun at other teams when ours were worse, makes you look like an idiot.
Just sayin... :)
 

jalimon

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But Edmonton is currently 9th in the league, TO? 23 They need to beat other team than the Oilers ;)

Cheers,

p.s. Habs are first, just saying...
 

lgna69xxx

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ROFL! you eally want to go down that road? Really??? Ok fine ROFL! (Sorry STN, look away my friend, this is a little lesson for our friend Jalimon)

How long has Edmonton been in a complete tear down and rebuild? 2 years? 3? 4? 5? how about 6 or 7?? The Leafs are in year 1, some might say year 2, huge huge HUGE difference. The Leafs are also in much better shape in the timeline of that rebuild compared to where the GEO were in yr 1 or 2.

Montreal is what i like to call a one-two-three team. Meaning they are 1-2-3 players away from a non playoff team and also a 1-2-3 players away from possibly being a contender for the cup. Say Weber or Price got hurt, and maybe AG27, what happens then? They have ZERO depth in the minors to sustain such a loss, ZERO! If they added a top dman and a 2nd line centre then they might be a team who could contend for a cup this season IF they stay healthy everywhere else, huge "IF" but what do they have to trade to get those last few pieces? Certainly not roster players or anyone from the Ice Caps, the only thing they have to trade are #1 draft picks and Bargain Bin Bergervin has already stated he will not trade #1 picks.

I will take the Leafs blue print anyday over what the Canadians have, it might be another season b4 the Leafs make the playoffs but we have waited a long time, one more year is not long lol...the Habbies window to win anything is running out, Price's best years as with Weber's are right now and maybe 1 and possibly 2 more seasons but with no depth it is going to be next to impossible to raise and drink from Lord Stanley's Cup.
But Edmonton is currently 9th in the league, TO? 23 They need to beat other team than the Oilers ;)

Cheers,

p.s. Habs are first, just saying...
 

EagerBeaver

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The Edmonton Oilers have been in a rebuilding mode for a while, but same can be said of the Cleveland Browns of the NFL and Philadelphia 76ers of the NBA. If you look at those 3 teams, they have been in a rebuild mode for what seems like 8 years. But believe it or not, Edmonton is showing the greatest progress of the 3 franchises which is mainly because when you suck for a long time and keep getting #1 picks, one of them is bound to be a great one. And that is what happened when the Oilers tanked and then got Conor McDavid with the 1st pick in the 2015 draft. All of their luck changed after that. Before that they had guys who were slow to develop or didn't develop, like Taylor Hall, whom they finally shipped off to the NJ Devils. Now some of their other young players are slowly starting to develop.

The Cleveland Browns, on the other hand, did not have a single 1st round pick from the prior 6 drafts still with the team, an incredible record of horrible drafting of assorted players at various positions who were all busts. The Cleveland Browns drafts of 2010-2015 were probably the worst 6 year stretch of drafting by any team in NFL history. Which is one reason they are 0-12 and could go winless this year.

The 76ers have had ridiculously high draft picks as a result of sucking and tanking the last 5 years, but have had worse luck than their hockey and football counterparts, mainly due to injuries, although some of the guys they drafted had known injury issues. Despite having arguably better draft picks than Edmonton or Cleveland the past 5-6 years, the Philadelphia 76ers as of this writing have a 4-16 record. worst in the NBA. They once again figure to suck and tank and get into the lottery for the #1 pick (last year's #1 pick Ben Simmons is injured and probably out for the years). The winless Cleveland Browns also figure to have a very high or possible #1 overall draft pick but given their track record, they should probably trade it. Only Edmonton seems to have burst out of chronic rebuilding mode of these 3 downtrodden franchises, and it's mainly because of Mr. McDavid and his NHL leading 34 points which have rejuvenated the Edmonton offense.
 

lgna69xxx

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Also, as of this post Edmonton has a mere 5 more points than the Leafs but have played 2 more games than the Leafs as well, this in year 6? or is it year 7 of their complete tear down and rebuild versus the Leafs year 1 (or 2 depending on who you ask) complete overhaul. I think STN would agree the main eason it has taken so long for the oilers is because of horrible management and why it likely won't take the Leafs as long is because of strong management. I want to see the Oil do well, just not as well as the Leafs so the 2 victories over them this season is sweet and i would love to see them in a cup final against each other in the not too distant future.
But Edmonton is currently 9th in the league, TO? 23 They need to beat other team than the Oilers ;)

Cheers,

p.s. Habs are first, just saying...
 

jalimon

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Hehe I know your right. I just wanted to tease you and STN a bit and find a way to mention that the Habs were currently in first place. Oups shit I did it again ;)

Cheers,
 

tiga

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Draft picks when rebuilding are important but it starts with good management Edmonton got rid of Lowe and the rest of the old Oilers gard, Toronto did the same when getting Shanahan etc. You have to know what to do with those picks!
Lamoriello for the Leafs and Chiarelli for the Oilers have both been with their respective teams since 2015.
Making the playoffs is something the Oilers can hope for this year.
Toronto is more entertaining then ever...
As for the Habs we all saw how fragile they are and still are.
Today's NHL with the salary cap and each team being so close to one another, injuries are very important.
Anybody has any news on Alex Galchenyuk?
 
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