The Savior Syndrome

[YouVantOption]

Others have trouble leaving the reality of that encounter and start seeing you at a different level. They care. They could help you. It would be a good thing. I think it's deeply egotistical and paternalist though. No other client but them would help you as they would... Some clients wondered why I never accepted gifts (I'm not talking lingerie here, but big things or large tips for no reason). This might answer the question.


t76

right. sounds to me like 'saviours' is an overly broad brush covering everyone from those extending some kindness to being a stalker. I think your last line underscores a sensible if somewhat stringent level of caution given your violence and stalking experiences, and the potential for it to happen.

That said, how do you approach the same potentials in non-SP relationships? There are reciprocal expectations in any relationship; people always play roles and uphold certain responsibilities to provide something to the other person. When someone fails to fulfil their obligations as it were, there can be acrimony manifesting itself in anything from a simple disagreement to domestic violence.

 

[Fat Happy Buddha]

I think it's deeply egotistical and paternalist though. No other client but them would help you as they would... Some clients wondered why I never accepted gifts (I'm not talking lingerie here, but big things or large tips for no reason). This might answer the question.
t76

I was thinking the same thing. A man who installs himself as a "savior" is ipso facto putting himself above the woman. A variation of this approach is found among westerners who set out to save Africans or whites who relocate to First Nations settlements to "make a difference". Not all westerners operate on the assumption that they are "more advanced" than the target peoples, but many do.

One possibility that hasn't been raised is that sometimes a "savior" might adopt this behavioural framework because he doesn't feel at ease with the prostitute-client relationship. He has to purify it by telling himself that he is different from other men and by seeking to raise the relationship into a higher realm defined by what he perceives to be more altruistic emotions.

Of course, another possible cause of the "savior syndrome" may simply be lack of experience. I would bet that a good percentage of the "saviors" have had relatively few encounters with sex professionals and they don't know how to process the rush of emotions. Personally, after thousands upon thousands of encounters, I no longer have this problem.

 

[YouVantOption]

Look, I didn't come up with the term. I did say it went on a spectrum, from extreme to not so extreme ... t76

I'd never heard the phrase previously, but doing a little research you are incorrect. it is a precise psychological diagnosis (as precise as they can be, at any rate) and being entirely misused in this context, as best as I can determine.


Here's a snippet of one description:

The saviour: in attention-seeking personality disorders like Munchausen Syndrome By Proxy (MSBP, also known as Factitious Disorder By Proxy) the person, usually female, creates opportunities to be centre of attention by intentionally causing harm to others and then being their saviour, by saving their life, and by being such a caring, compassionate person. Few people realise the injury was deliberate. The MSBP mother or nurse may kill several babies before suspicions are aroused. When not in saviour mode, the saviour may be resentful, perhaps even contemptuous, of the person or persons she is saving.

 

[YouVantOption]

How surprising. There's a psychological diagnosis for everything under the rainbow-- just look at all the diagnoses in the DSM that 'explain' children and teens' 'deviant' behavior. I may be incorrect, but again, I didn't coin the term and neither did M. Montana. It's been around a long time. As far as it being entirely misused, in a psychology class perhaps.

Well, perhaps you and your associates misused it in the same manner as many people misuse the term 'psycho'. My read on it is that SS is a rare, specific, seemingly severe condition. As the citation I provided makes note, it involves hurting another person specifically so that the saviour can then swoop in to reverse what they started. That pretty far along the continuum towards the stalking end.

I'll be interested to read what our guest psychologist will have to say about it.

As I said to you just now by PM, I don't think SS covers what we are describing. Maybe a new phrase like Petty Stalker is more apropos.

In semi-order - yes, the DSM covers stuff that you might consider to be irrelevant. that doesn't negate the fact that it also describes serious mental illnesses.

Yes, the women who become prositutes generally have some self-esteem problems in their past. That doesn't mean all of them do.

yes, the guys who frequent prostitutes generally have self-esteem problems. That doesn't mean they all do.

there's this thing called standard deviation, an apropriate phrase if I every heard one in this instance.

 

[z/m(Ret)]

Well, perhaps you and your associates misused it in the same manner as many people misuse the term 'psycho'.

And quite clearly you're misunderstanding this thread's mission statement as if it's supposed to warrant any sort of psychiatric diagnosis. In case you haven't noticed this is merb, an escorts review board, and, given the context, it's not uncommon to share non-specialized views and, in the process, recuperate terminologies metaphorically, duh.

 

[YouVantOption]

And quite clearly you're misunderstanding this thread's mission statement as if it's supposed to warrant any sort of psychiatric diagnosis. In case you haven't noticed this is merb, an escorts review board, and, given the context, it's not uncommon to share non-specialized views and, in the process, recuperate terminologies metaphorically, duh.

OK, now we know you are blowing smoke or need reading glases. Or have you not noticed all of the attempts to develop accurate definitions for GFE / PSE et alia?? This is, if nothing else, a place all about the definitions and yes, acronyms. In bottom line terms I enjoy being pedantic from time to time. And that, I'm certain you have noticed.

 

[hormone]

I'd never heard the phrase previously, but doing a little research you are incorrect. it is a precise psychological diagnosis (as precise as they can be, at any rate) and being entirely misused in this context, as best as I can determine.

Here's a snippet of one description:

The saviour: in attention-seeking personality disorders like Munchausen Syndrome By Proxy (MSBP, also known as Factitious Disorder By Proxy) the person, usually female, creates opportunities to be centre of attention by intentionally causing harm to others and then being their saviour, by saving their life, and by being such a caring, compassionate person. Few people realise the injury was deliberate. The MSBP mother or nurse may kill several babies before suspicions are aroused. When not in saviour mode, the saviour may be resentful, perhaps even contemptuous, of the person or persons she is saving.

YVA the term saviour is actually not entirely misused. Some extreme cases will cause physical harm initially to put themselves in a good light (as in the Munchausen by proxy), yes. But others will initially simply try to "elevate" a person from a "bad" condition (such as an SP... as per the saviour's own judgement); this elevation though is followed by creating a dependancy state of the "saved" to the saviour. And the saviour usually will do anything to maintain the "saved" into the dependancy state once the saviour relationship is established, as this is what perpetuates the saviour's own sense of self value. Anything can become violent or degrading sometimes, to remind the "saved" how "bad" they are and how needy of the saviour they should be.

Of course not all cases are so extreme. Like said, it starts in a very unconscious manner in most saviour's heads. But once the pattern of self gratification through saving someone is established, this is where it can become dangerous.

Another thing is that we all have some characteristics of a bunch of personality traits and some personality disorders. Having one or two characteristics of this ir that is not pathological, it is actually normal. Read the DSM-iV and you will recognize something from yourself in many personality disorders. So some people are maybe a little overly nice to SPs, that does not make them saviours per se. But I can understand why T_76 would never accept unduue gifts, as this can be the first step... Having clear boundaries is usually the best thing to avoid problems with personality diisorders.

 

[Techman]

You find the same kind of Saviors or, as I prefer to call them, White Knights, in the regular world as well. They're the guys that try to save a lady from an abusive boyfriend or husband. Many times they are co-workers or friends. And almost always they are as bad as the abuser as they are never as altruistic as they pretend to be. He wants to save the abused/controlled lady from her abuser so he can have her for himself. If and when he succeeds in helping her get out of her situation, he expects her to fall into his arms and in love with him. You also find a lot of this in stripclubs, with guys promising dancers they will take them away and give them all they ever dreamed of.

 

[YouVantOption]

Another thing is that we all have some characteristics of a bunch of personality traits and some personality disorders. Having one or two characteristics of this ir that is not pathological, it is actually normal. Read the DSM-iV and you will recognize something from yourself in many personality disorders.

true dat. I once did an online test which noted that I was heavily trending towards being IIRC psychotic, sociopathic, and zenophobic (for real). Clearly wrong, since I am certainly not psychotic, and all those accusations of mass murder were never substantiated.







(great, now my sense of humour has guaranteed that i will never get laid again this century, and all the agencies have got me written up as public enemy #1 on Stella's bad trick list. Ah well, what price comedy.)

 

[eastender]

Imitators

Far from convinced that the word "savior" accurately describes the scenario that generated the thread and how it has evolved. It seems that in the situations described so far the male is imitating certain types of behavior that was seen in movies or described in the theater - "Pretty Woman", "Taxi Driver", "Pygmalion" etc.

Since we all tend to imitate things that for one reason or another impress us in a positive sense(even if the vast majority may get a negative impression), my sense is that the situations described so far are imitations.

Taking this point a step further, strip clubs have at times been the venue for for variants of the "Marshall Dillion" and "Miss Kitty" Gunsmoke relationship. Police officers date / marry dancers strippers and officers have directly or indirectly owned such clubs.

Furthermore, dancers / strippers have been known to target pro athletes and professionals. It is well known that Barry Bonds was married to a former Chez Paree dancer, less known that Chesty Morgan was married to an MLB umpire (
how do you think she managed field access?). Some of the less timid groupies
at Jarry Park were dancers/SPs who used to congragate along the right field foul line near the visiting players club house.Some from Montreal and other cities used to travel to meet their favourites( serving them their favourite - chicken,etc) Of course these women did not see the ballplayers who visited the clubs where they worked as nuisances but as a chance at the diamond ring.

Difference between a nuisance or a stalker and an admirerer is the size of the billfold.

 

[Dee]

there's this thing called standard deviation, an apropriate phrase if I every heard one in this instance.

This is an example of why you have to love the Boards... there's a lot of bright folks out there!

 

[Dee]

This is a fascinating thread... one that makes you question your motives when you help someone.

FHB's comment about helping some bum on the street vs a sexy girl makes me think.

I have, without succes, tried to help a couple of girls.

The Montreal one I did have sex with b4... then gave her some monies other times just to help her out with nothing in return... she articulated some dreams to me that impressed me. I went to work for her as I had an idea that would help her greatly... but she didn't have the attention span to profit from anything I did. We're stll firends and I help her out in very small ways from time to time.... but I'm in no way involved with her sexually. She has made some very remarkable progress but still is burdened with problems few of us can imagine.

The other was a girl I met on the West Coast and was in no way sexually involved with her.... here I proposed something that would have me disappear completely... I'd replace her "funding" through a recognised helping agency for a year if she would take care of herself and her unborn child... this again came to nothing... but it was a sincere offer.

I have asked myself... am I just a fat old man playing around in other peoples' lives? Did I really know that the offers wouldn't be taken up and actually cost me anything?

I have helped other people, some very significantly, and have enjoyed it... I've spent not insignificant sums doing it. Quaere... does this make someone in my position any better then a guy who enjoys poking birds' eyes with hot needles and enjoys it? The first may serve some greater good.... but, arguably, its done for the same reason viz, personal enjoyment and satisfaction... maybe we should only admire those who hate helping but do it anyway... if such there exists...

Strange world, n'est-ce pas?

 

[emgeef]

If an escort has issues with her job (which seems to often be the case), I think the first step should be to stop seing her as a client. I find it a bit ironic when so-called savior pretend they want to help but still contribute to the problem...

As for myself, I am too independent to be the type who needs to be saved but even if I was, I would never accept "help" from a client. Because I tend to think there is always more to it than altruistic motives.

I have to agree. I had this out of shop relationship. I helped her , but got much more special treatment...not even close...I mean everything and anything... she got more money, some relationship type thing , but kept up her massaging... saviour maybe...altruistic,nah

 

[daydreamer41]

This is a very interesting thread.

But my question to it would be in the context of the SP / client relationship, instead of the guy who starts fires to put them out, wouldn't the client who has the savour complex would be the guy who seeks out the SP who is needy? and wants her to be constantly needy, so he can fill her void? like her constant saviour? when she gets any feeling of independence, he is threatened.

The SP scene is perfect for the man with the saviour complex, because many SP's because of the nature of their choice of being an SP, may find assistance from one guy to be an easier route than being an SP to many, and can be needy in psychological terms (the weaker minded ones) also.

I think the term may be co-dependency, where the guy needing to help the needy object needs her to be in constant need in order to fulfill his sickness.

Healthy relationships are always built on 2 individuals who are independent but find dependencies that foster their relationship. The relationship described in this thread is based on dependency that if either one gains a feeling of independence, the relationship is over or is at the least extremely threatened and can become troublesome in every aspect.

It is beyond the sugar daddy scenario, because there is an understanding in that type of relationship that the bonding factor is money and sex only. There is no emotional attachment. Either side understands the relationship can change and be dissolved at will.

 

[joelcairo]

Check out "Irma La Douce" starring Jack Lemmon and Shirley MacLaine, directed by Billy Wilder, 1963.

 

[z/m(Ret)]

In bottom line terms I enjoy being pedantic from time to time. And that, I'm certain you have noticed.

I have not. In fact, you're barely noticeable.

 

[z/m(Ret)]

Far from convinced that the word "savior" accurately describes the scenario that generated the thread and how it has evolved.

And, according to you, "imitators" would accurately describe the said scenario or am I reading you wrong?

 

[eastender]

Imitators

And, according to you, "imitators" would accurately describe the said scenario or am I reading you wrong?

Would advance our understanding of the situation.

 

[z/m(Ret)]

You also find a lot of this in stripclubs, with guys promising dancers they will take them away and give them all they ever dreamed of.

Assumption made that no one here has the qualifications to pose psychiatric diagnosises, there's no telling at which point "being nice" turns into a pathology. What Techman describes above might just be a case of some horny ass on booze but what if, instead, this dude has a fixation, like he's really on a mission to pull this dancer out of her cabin girl lifestyle? Pathology or not, appropriate or inappropriate terminology, seems like "being nice" has the potential to escalate beyond the standard niceties and reach a problematic level.

Keeping in mind this premise, I'm crafting two scenarios I would submit to the learned audience as case studies:

- Sexworker fails to recognize the signs and becomes increasingly dependent of the client.

- Sexworker recognizes the signs and deludes the client into thinking she's dependent of him, only for immediate benefits.

 

[z/m(Ret)]

Would advance our understanding of the situation.

Alright. Assuming we've made an heuristic gain how do we advance further? Specifically, what further lessons can be drawn from the concept of "imitation" when imitation becomes recurrent and obsessive to the point of pathology?