The Savior Syndrome
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Dee said:
This one or the one outside the window?
I think your playing Sol Star to Trixie the Whore was entirely different than torturing animals. The extension of an offer of kindness and its acceptance does indeed bring one 'pleasure' or a sense of satisafaction, of being a good person. That is not pejorative, and shame on anyone here who implies it is.
I recently read that charities have noted a huge difference in their advertising campaigns when they show a doe-eyed child, people will line up to donate but if they show a group of them, the funding is barely a trickle. Same thing here; when presented with an individual who can/'needs' to be helped, we very naturally respond. Some of the stories one encounters among escorts are heart-breaking, one would have to be inhuman not to respond, but you are hardly going to save all the girls at an agency. Helping others is the way we are wired; google for a recent study which seems to prove that monkeys show selfless empathy for others. Apparently monkeys cannot swim but if one is drowning, the others will try to help him/her, even at peril to themselves.
What we are seemingly talking about is a pathology that goes quite a bit further, with unspoken expectations of a large recompense from the recipient once she has been 'saved' (perhaps this stems from some sort of misguided fundamentalist Christian concept?); the sexual relationship will eventually be replaced by love and gratitude for the proffered escape route.
It is all a question of degree. Sniffing a line or two of coke does not make a person an addict. Smoking and 8 Ball every day is probably a strong indicator of a problem.
Sleeping with a Rock Star can be fun, and a girl could be considered to be a little bit of a groupie, but she is a far cry from a real groupie, who makes it her mission in life to seduce performing artists, and has a competition with her fellow groupies as to whom from which band she has slept with (collect 'em all!).
Having sex with an escort does not make one a hobbyist. Comparing notes online and spending a fortune ... wait. No, that's entirely natural and well-balanced. Nevermind.
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Ziggy Montana said:
Simple - neither party should allow themselves to be sucked in. There are plenty of escorts and woment who are highly aware of their manipulative abilities, guys angrily decry them here and elswewhere all the time. So, be aware that you are getting played when she says she doesn't remember how many dances at $20/per she performed.
Women need to be equally aware, according to the considerable experience of the SPs here of some proportion of their clientele who have much darker motives when making offers of recompense beyond the standard exchange of goodies and services for money. T76 seems to have drawn a high-water line for refusing such things by denying them all. While that leads to losing out on the innocuous, it certainly does avoid having to extracate oneself afterwards in the case of an obsessive client who has understood that his paying your rent this month because you are having an unexpected tough time means he gets to visit your apartment at 4 a.m., unnanounced, just to check that you are alright.
Lessons
Since no one here has the qualifications to perform psychiatric diagnosis, paraphrasing your post,I will limit the response to lay observations.
When "imitation" does not repeat then both parties have evaluated the situation,learned from it and moved on.If the male repeats the behavior with other SPs without refinement then somewhere down the road expect things to deteriorate.If the female starts getting involved in similar situations then perhaps that is what she is looking for.There is a fine line between things that "just happen" and encouragement.
Ziggy Montana said:
Since no one here has the qualifications to perform psychiatric diagnosis, paraphrasing your post,I will limit the response to lay observations.
When "imitation" does not repeat then both parties have evaluated the situation,learned from it and moved on.If the male repeats the behavior with other SPs without refinement then somewhere down the road expect things to deteriorate.If the female starts getting involved in similar situations then perhaps that is what she is looking for.There is a fine line between things that "just happen" and encouragement.
Three or four posts since your inception doesn't account much to a continuation. But if you care to know, cutting on the pedantic factor a bit might get you the right kind of attention, my 2 cents.YouVantOption said:
Should schmould! Things are simple in theory but, unless one has a vest interest in wearing blinders, reality shows otherwise: enough people on either side of the trade are still getting caught in the "savior's" trap to make a case of it. Experience of the business nitty gritties is not available straightaway and isn't there such thing as people having particular dispositions for getting caught in all kinds of schemes?YouVantOption said:
In any case, how does your comment answer my question?
Ziggy Montana said:
Actually I'm talking about situations where the client is not a one time client but a regular who becomes fixated on 'saving' the dancer from her 'harmful' profession or bad relationship. Not the drunk guy who promises the world and then goes home never to return.
And I definitely think that in some situations, being a 'nice guy' can be very detrimental to both the guy's mental and psychological health. There's a reason for the saying 'nice guys finish last'...they are often taken advantage of, sometimes to the point of losing everything they have. But I think we could call these type of people 'martyrs' instead of saviours. They actually do not want anything in return and will give all they have to save someone, losing or destroying themselves in the process. And rarely accomplishing their goal.
Ziggy Montana said:
I could care less if I garner your attention or not - you said you didn't pay my posts any attention, the facts speak for themselves. Moving on ...
Ziggy Montana said:
I have no idea what you are trying to say here. what business niotty gritties and how do they intersect with what we are talking about - proposed 'solutions' to the SS?
Ziggy Montana said:
Absolutely. In my experience dealing with schemes of another sort, people who fall for them tend to be naive at the outset, ashamed during the process, and chastened afterwards, but not relieved of their naiveté. Witness the numerous people who fall for a boilerroom pitch, are scammed out of a lot of money, and then fall for another pitch by the same conmen 'I am Jean Lessard from the RCMP, and I'm here to help you recoup your money, all I need you to do is ...'
Ziggy Montana said:
You are right, it doesn't. I don't think there is a whole lot, if anything that can be done by developing some pseudo science on an escort review board which reaches out to a tiny proportion of the people involved in the business in Montreal.
So take the concept and run with it - publish it somewhere with more impact. or not.
Interesting. Concepts like morbidity and obsession could therefore be understood within the mindset of repetition of behavioural patterns which, themselves, are imitations. Conceptually, repetition being "imitations of imitations" and imitations introducing each time "differences" (perhaps small, barely observable, yet perceptible enough to provide every time a renewed sense of novelty), pathology would be assessed through one's particular disposition to - say - focus only on the differences with the result of living through each recurrence as if the first time, something like that...eastender said:
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traveller_76 said:Wow, escort world aside, where have you been living? I want to move to that island... Helping others may be the way we are rewired when we are raised to help, it's certainly not a universal trait; google Bowling Alone by Putnam to see how helping others has steadily been going down the drain since the 50s--we associate less, we vote less, we give less relative to what we now make. ... I used to volunteer in a geriatric unit ...
I am not sure if it is endemic to your former profession but this would be the third time in less than a month that I have heard an SP says she does or did volunteer work ...
I think, without having seen the Putnam work nor the studies that presumably underpin it that there are several things at play ...
Our natural instincts for empathy and altruism are contrasted by the Bickle Syndrome (henceforth known as B.S.), being overwhelmed by the disenfranchising nature of modern day life in the big city. Fear of others that are different. A huge increase in the number of people who need help.
I have no way, as I said, of contradicting Putnam, ergo your contention that helping others has been on the decline, I can be convinced that might be right but you must concede it has not been attenuated to zero ...
You certainly expressed empathy regarding your troubled old lady on the metro story, and you obviously have some feelings of guilt for not having translated those feelings into actions. There are plenty of stories of people trying to help mentally distressed people with awful results, I imagine they played a part in your decision making process; they certainly have when I have done the same thing as you, and lived to regret my inaction afterwards.
I've travelled to some poor places; I always try to but souvenirs when offered, and tip as best I can. Empathy into charitable acts. However, I can't and don't help everyone who asks and comes forward with their hand open. I'd like to believe that most people are the same way.
Nothing New
Nothing new.
A long time ago monkeys figured out that there a finite number of ways to peel a banana and that at various stages of the ripening process they taste different.Assuming that a monkey could build a memory bank to determine the best banana ever eaten thereby viewing each banana snack thru the experience of the first would be a sign of intelligence.Linking this phenomena to a pathology would be a stretch.
By analogy I do not see any pathology developing. At best you have a bump in the road of life. You have a planned random meeting between two strangers.
From a business perspective if I were to outline a marketable project at a meeting,profitable to both parties to a business person they can accept or reject the proposal. For whatever motive there is mutual interest and the potential of mutual benefit. Does that make me a savior? No. If accepted things move forward.Rejected I step back, review, learn, adjust, etc and either comeback to the same or different party with a better(newer) proposal and repeat the process.Does this process of improving the proposal translate into a pathology?No.
From a relationship perspective it may be viewed as too businesslike or commercial. The phenomena of mutual interest and benefit still exists but the SP may be offended or scared off. Regardless the client is further ahead because doubt has been removed. Does this removal of doubt translate into a pathology?No.
Should clients refrain from getting into such situations and making such offers? In some cases perhaps,but why closes doors for all concerned and prefer doubt over certainty? Really no different than pre teens at their first dance. Of course you ask the pretty girl to dance. The worst that can happen is that she says no BUT you are not dancing with her anyway.
Refining your approach until one says yes is not a pathology.
Your biggest worries may be if she says yes.
Ziggy Montana said:
Nothing new.
A long time ago monkeys figured out that there a finite number of ways to peel a banana and that at various stages of the ripening process they taste different.Assuming that a monkey could build a memory bank to determine the best banana ever eaten thereby viewing each banana snack thru the experience of the first would be a sign of intelligence.Linking this phenomena to a pathology would be a stretch.
By analogy I do not see any pathology developing. At best you have a bump in the road of life. You have a planned random meeting between two strangers.
From a business perspective if I were to outline a marketable project at a meeting,profitable to both parties to a business person they can accept or reject the proposal. For whatever motive there is mutual interest and the potential of mutual benefit. Does that make me a savior? No. If accepted things move forward.Rejected I step back, review, learn, adjust, etc and either comeback to the same or different party with a better(newer) proposal and repeat the process.Does this process of improving the proposal translate into a pathology?No.
From a relationship perspective it may be viewed as too businesslike or commercial. The phenomena of mutual interest and benefit still exists but the SP may be offended or scared off. Regardless the client is further ahead because doubt has been removed. Does this removal of doubt translate into a pathology?No.
Should clients refrain from getting into such situations and making such offers? In some cases perhaps,but why closes doors for all concerned and prefer doubt over certainty? Really no different than pre teens at their first dance. Of course you ask the pretty girl to dance. The worst that can happen is that she says no BUT you are not dancing with her anyway.
Refining your approach until one says yes is not a pathology.
Your biggest worries may be if she says yes.
Humans sense of community is often dichotomized between competitiveness and accommodativeness, two intrinsic traits that are sollicited in ways where, for instance, one selfish jerk can suddenly turn into the good samaritan. Reverse the terms and we get, for another example, this good-hearted person, always benevolent, always there to help, yet, every business day, metamorphosing into a monster of individualism wearing a corporate executive cap. Seems like we, societal humans, are biologically polarized between these two values whereas how we fluctuate between these would be more a matter of acquisition (education, key life events, etc.)traveller_76 said:
Based on such premises, would the "savior" be one who fails to recognize that his altruistic ways are concealing his completely self-absorbed personality?
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Throwing in this comment without giving it much of a thought but symptomatic of the increased isolation of the citizen you are describing would be the quasi disappearance of the place publique from modern urbanism, like there would no longer be a need for citizens to gather outdoors.traveller_76 said:
YouVantOption said:
YouVantOption, I want to thank you for your response to Dee's post. I was troubled last night that Dee might be overanalyzing his motivations for helping his friends and coming to a negative conclusion. Your response captured essentially my own reaction to Dee's post and also expressed it more clearly than I would have had fatigue not kept me from responding.
There is nothing wrong with feeling good when one helps someone. In fact, it is probably nature's way of making us do it more often. It seems to me that what is being discuss in this thread is rather a kind of giving that, like wine that has turned to vinegar, has become essentially different in nature.
Dee said:
I want to return to Dee's post again because it offers a real-world example of somebody making a judgement on what step to take in the face of conflicting emotions. A woman needs help. Dee happens to be in a client-provider relationship with the woman. He feels a desire to assist her, but wonders if it might be because he wants affection in return.
Each day we are faced with situations where conflicting emotions arise and we have to do a split second juggling act in which we weigh a multitude of emotional and practical factors before coming to a conclusion on what action to take. Often, during my late night treks home after Cleo's, I am met by young people who ask me for money. In deciding what to do, I weigh the urgency of their case, their sincerity, their appearance, but also past instances in which people helped me. More than once I've said to them, "Listen, when I was your age people helped me, so now I'm going to help you. But I want you to promise that you'll do the same when you're older and you have money." Who knows, maybe this insignificant gesture will reverberate outward, like one of those novels that you read and then leave on a park bench for somebody else to pick up and pass on. Nevertheless, I am aware that often my donation of two, five or even twenty dollars is made partly because, having just spent $150 for a massage plus eight dances at a strip club, I cannot refuse a fellow human-being the amount of a hot meal without feeling guilty. But all in all, I weigh all the factors and I do what I feel will result in the greatest good.
I put forth that it is precisely this feeling of doubt and the constant process of introspection, both so integral to the human condition, that are absent in the mindset of the "savior". If we imagine the Savior in court in the event that his actions lead to violence or a restraining order, what would he say? Similar to a stalker of a female celebrity, he would insist with one-hundred percent conviction, "She needs me. She's just doesn't understand." Or even "She loves me. Only I can save her. Nobody else." His fragile ego cannot brook any doubt or introspection. He is not emotionally strong enough to deal with the subtleties of human interaction.
Dee said:
No, Dee, you are a generous guy whose funeral, when it does come, will be attended by more heart-broken mistresses and prostitutes than Francois Mitterand's. Assuming you don't outlast me, can I attend? I have the feeling it will be a great opportunity to pick up grief-stricken women in need of "consoling".
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Compulsive Banana Peelings
Analogy:
Studies of the bio-chemical basis for sequential stereotyped hyper-dopaminergic monkeys banana-peelings (lol) offer insights into neural mechanisms of overly-rigid sequences of action or thought in human patients with disorders such as OCD, a pathology which features repetitive tormentig habits and morbid thoughts.
Stretching the analogy: overly tired and jaded hobbyists who nonetheless sneak out of their marital beds in the middle of night to meet SP's should consider having their dopamine levels checked.
Disclaimer: none of the above is grounded in reality and should be read as an exercise in self-derision.
What you're describing is a cognitive process where monkeys draw connections between a cognitive event in the past and its 'recurrence' in the present. Yet, it is (not so well) known that dysfunctions in monkeys nigrostriatal dopamine systems are strongly correlated with excessive sequential stereotypy of behavioral patterns, such as "peeling bananas". In sequential stereotyped banana-peeling, hyper-dopaminergic monkeys appear to be trapped in overly rigid sequential patterns of action: a unique syntactic banana-peeling chain governed by only one syntactic rule is a fixed action pattern that serially links up to several peeling movements into a much fewer predictable phases. As a result, you have monkeys with dopamine dysfunctions peeling bananas mechanically and frantically and not necessarly for the purpose of feeding themselves.eastender said:
Analogy:
Studies of the bio-chemical basis for sequential stereotyped hyper-dopaminergic monkeys banana-peelings (lol) offer insights into neural mechanisms of overly-rigid sequences of action or thought in human patients with disorders such as OCD, a pathology which features repetitive tormentig habits and morbid thoughts.
Stretching the analogy: overly tired and jaded hobbyists who nonetheless sneak out of their marital beds in the middle of night to meet SP's should consider having their dopamine levels checked.
Disclaimer: none of the above is grounded in reality and should be read as an exercise in self-derision.
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Dee said:
YouVantOption said:
Fat Happy Buddha said:
Equanimity said:
In the same line of thoughts and before anyone jumps to the wrong conclusions, we should remind ourselves that altruism is endemic to humans and that helping others isn’t necessarily motivated by a need to compensate for underlying psychological flaws. Feelings of self-satisfaction and fulfillment over helping others, as it was appropriately illustrated on this thread, are only human, quite healthy actually, and certainly enticing.
The case of one developing a sense of compassion over a specific fellow human who, for instance, would be in a state of free-fall, doesn’t per se qualify as pathology. As a matter of fact, there would be nothing negative about that. Regardless of how individualistic societies have become, compassion remains a strong feeling which, in specific situations where help is needed and one is in position to help appropriately, makes turning backs and walking away unlikely options.
Through our effort to advance our understanding of the dynamics of clients helping SP’s, the concept of “repetition” was interestingly brought up. Although not entirely conclusive over whether or not it provides an adequate model for pathological behaviors, the concept of repetition may nonetheless provide some insights: picture a client whose offer to help would overwhelm (through persistence and repeated argumentation) a SP’s capacity to decline it, like, he somehow managed to convince her that she actually has problems and that he would be the only person capable and willing to help her. Imagine furthermore the same client repeating this behavior systematically with every new SP he meets and draw your conclusions.
This is the monster I had in mind when I started this thread – the “Savior”. One might ask if it’s worth discussing “monsters”: don’t we all know that monsters don’t exist? Before I posted the thread, I asked the question to a few credible participants in this hobby, Sp's, clients and misc. commentators of the Montreal escorting scene who pretty much all answered: “They exist and they’re not all that rare”…
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