It's very easy to throw out and insults and hard to use your head as you have consistently shown. The Yankees supposed major competitor for Cano is Seattle, who offers Cano MAYBE slightly more money than what the Yankees have put on the table, and an opportunity to play in oblivion with no fellow hispanics in his neighborhood for a team that sucks moose balls and has no offensive players to protect Cano. The choice is that or a playoff team. Cano can't ask for $30 million because nobody is going to offer it and the Yankees have already told him what their position is. The Yankees have gambled that nobody can better their offer. Maybe they will be right. Did this ever occur to you?
Baseball offseason, let's get ready for 2014.
- Thread starter Joe.t
- Start date
This BP article also proves that the Yankees did not overpay except by other team's standards, and that does not count:
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=22353
"In the short term, Ellsbury, Brett Gardner, and Alfonso Soriano (with Ichiro Suzuki in a fourth outfielder/pinch runner role) should combine for a fine defensive outfield, and with full seasons expected from from Teixeira, McCann, and Brendan Ryan, the Yankees have the makings of their best fielding unit since their 2009-10 teams. The lineup looks more than a bit unbalanced—if Cano re-signs, the Yankees’ three best batters will hit left-handed—but that’s less of a problem for a team that plays half its games in the Bronx than it would be almost anywhere else. If you’re a Yankees fan, Ellsbury’s arrival is reason to celebrate, despite the dismaying dollar value. If you root for anyone else, this signing calls for a familiar, frustrated sigh."
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=22353
"In the short term, Ellsbury, Brett Gardner, and Alfonso Soriano (with Ichiro Suzuki in a fourth outfielder/pinch runner role) should combine for a fine defensive outfield, and with full seasons expected from from Teixeira, McCann, and Brendan Ryan, the Yankees have the makings of their best fielding unit since their 2009-10 teams. The lineup looks more than a bit unbalanced—if Cano re-signs, the Yankees’ three best batters will hit left-handed—but that’s less of a problem for a team that plays half its games in the Bronx than it would be almost anywhere else. If you’re a Yankees fan, Ellsbury’s arrival is reason to celebrate, despite the dismaying dollar value. If you root for anyone else, this signing calls for a familiar, frustrated sigh."
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No, it hasn't because the idea is utterly ridiculous. Are you aware that every team in baseball is drowning in money? Are you aware that every team will receive an additional $25 M starting next year from the TV contract. The only team in baseball that can't afford Cano is the one that is supposedly determined to stay under the $189 M luxury tax level.
You left out some, like:
"When the Ellsbury contract is over, it’s not going to look good, dollars-per-win-wise. Let’s just note that up front, accept it, and move on, because you can bet than Brian Cashman already has."
and
"When we rank general managers by how well they’ve deployed their dollars, the Yankees’ GM consistently ranks near the bottom."
Yup, and with the significantly change playing field, the Yankees can no longer bludgeon the rest of the league with money...except by making silly deals like this one.
and
"Ellsbury hit about half of his career homers in 2011 alone. That season increasingly looks like an outlier, but the move to Yankee Stadium should provide a power boost, just as it did for the last lefty-swinging center fielder who left Boston for New York. A few months ago, Sam and I predicted how many homers Ellsbury would hit over the next five years—I said 50, and Sam said 66. That short porch should decide the contest in Sam's favor, but it won't bring back that outlier power."
Hmm. The higher figure, 11 per season, is about what I projected a bit earlier in this thread.
No, it's not a disastrous move. But it's a significant over pay that a) doesn't address the team's major needs and b) doesn't leave the the payroll flexibility to do so. Oh, and with the new posting rules making Tanaka effectively a free agent, you can expect him to pull in over $100 M. The Yanks are probably out on Tanaka and, if they sign Cano, Kuroda as well.
So how do you feel about your team starting the season with a rotation of Sabathia, Nova, Phelps and a couple of guys from Scranton?
Please note as well. It's one thing to insult and call someone names as you have repeatedly done with Merlot and quite another to insult not the person, but the stupid shit the person says. I would never think of insulting you, but if you insist on making comments like the above, I'll certainly call out you out for them.
If you're referring to using one's head as in sticking it up one's ass, then yes, unlike yourself, I do have trouble with that. Are you offering lessons?
Personally i dont give a rats a** what the Yanks pay their players and never have, afterall it is THEIR MOOLAH and they play by the rules as in no salary cap....All i know is that by adding McCann and Ellsbury makes the Bombers a better team and that is what is most important. I also dont care if they go over the $189 mil for this season, hell, i hope they go to $300 mil so you red sox homers keep crying in your prune juice..
Missing the playoffs just might have been the fire that needed to be lit under Hank and Hals butts to make sure they do everything in their power so it does not happen again anytime soon and i do think that is the case here and if so then last year was a success (in a way if you get my drift)
Now just sign Tanaka and Garza and re sign Cano and Kuroda, that should get us near $250mil, right rumps? Still room to add more top guys to get us to $300mil!
Missing the playoffs just might have been the fire that needed to be lit under Hank and Hals butts to make sure they do everything in their power so it does not happen again anytime soon and i do think that is the case here and if so then last year was a success (in a way if you get my drift)
Now just sign Tanaka and Garza and re sign Cano and Kuroda, that should get us near $250mil, right rumps? Still room to add more top guys to get us to $300mil!
Probably would, plus the additional $30 M in luxury tax that the Steinbrothers are trying to avoid. Unfortunately for you, given all the shitty contracts the Yankees are buried under and with the lack of any help coming any time soon from the farm, it probably would take $250 M to make the Yanks a winner and, since you're not writing the checks, that probably ain't happening.
I know you really don't live in the real world, but it appears that young Mr. Tanaka will not be coming to America after all. With the new posting rules, he is not going to be posted.
It does, unless it also means losing Cano and Kuroda. Then they're a weaker team. A much weaker team. Now that we know that Seattle is ready to go to $230-$240 M for Cano, it's most likely bye-bye Bronx to their very best player.
If that is true then the Yankees are drowning in more money, and who cares that they overpay? All of your posts are to parrot others saying that Ellsbury is being overpaid, but then you tell us that everyone is drowning in money, so that overpaying really does not matter. Which is it?
I have not read anything of the sort. What I have read is that Seattle is not willing to go anywhere near those numbers. I also read that they would rather get two offensive players rather than one expensive one. I personally think the media is being fed a lot of BS about Seattle by Cano's reps to drum up interest. Nothing concrete has come from the Seattle GM except that he has talked to Cano's reps. He has also talked to every other free agent's reps. It is his job.
We also have to ask the common sense question: does Cano want to go from a perennial contending team to a team that will suck maybe the rest of his career, in a place where the Dominican population is nil, and where nobody really ever gets to see him play? Cano is a guy who plays the game for joy and loves to win. There is no fucking joy in playing in Seattle. There is no joy in playing for a team that cannot protect you and for which he will be pitched around every game. Where is the joy in that?
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BOYZ!
And the silliest comment award goes to...
So Cano's reaction to overpaying Ellsbury is going to be...OMG, there's little money left for me??? :lol: :lol: :lol: Either someone has no idea what team he roots for or this is a new epic low in absolute BS!!! So the same team Iggy has said can spend at will a never give a damn...the same team that had already given A-Rod TWO monster contracts (the second grossly larger than the first) all totaling $450 million and still came back to sign Sabathia for $180 million more on top of that...the same team that has set every standard for obscene sports contracts...the same team that broke their promise to hold the spending line and wouldn't know how to Google "fiscal constraint" is trying to say to Cano they don't have the money to pay him what he wants???
I have to apologize Joe.t. Da Beav just broke all records for saying the dumbest thing I've ever seen. You're totally right about the presence of EB being entertaining Doc. No one else would dare promote such BS then try to sell it as a "bold and aggressive move". Only on member could say anything so insanely convoluted and mean it. You called it Doc. :thumb:
The LoHud Yankees Blog
http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2013/12/03/report-yankees-sign-jacoby-ellsbury/
Shame Spencer December 3rd, 2013 at 8:37 pm
Going 7/150 for a player not NEARLY as durable as Cano but haggling with our future HOF 2B makes no sense to me
Captain Clutch December 3rd, 2013 at 8:37 pm
Are the Yanks trying to sign Ellsbury and Choo? Confused…
Is Cashman drunk? When the yanks actually do spend money they seem to spend it on the wrong players.
J. Alfred Prufrock December 3rd, 2013 at 8:42 pm
What a ridiculous signing.
30 years old, injury prone, speed his main weapon.
This wreaks of Red Sox paranoia.
Which is really comical if you think about it, since we’re the ones with the 27 WSC.
Cano had better be signed.
Newsflash Levine: no one’s rushing the pay $35 for parking and $100 for a ticket to watch Ellsbury misread balls.
Captain Clutch December 3rd, 2013 at 8:43 pm
Seriously is Cashman drunk or smoking something? Or is this a Randy Levine move?
blake December 3rd, 2013 at 8:38 pm
wanzies222 says:
December 3, 2013 at 8:37 pm
I’m gonna go with 189 = toast.
Appears you’re right unless they let cano go…..and then I’ll be pissed because Ellsbury for 150 is way worse than cano for 200
yankeefeminista December 3rd, 2013 at 8:41 pm
Mark Feinsand ?@FeinsandNYDN 1m
Yankees deal with Ellsbury is seven years and $153 million. That’s $12 million more than Crawford’s contract.
Wrong!!! He can.
What playoff team? Los Angeles, St. Louis, Pittsburgh, Atlanta, Detroit, Tampa Bay, Cleveland...the 3-time in this centruy World Series Champions BOSTON RED SOX? Oh that's right, all the Yankees fans disappeared aS fast as their team in September. No wonder you missed the news. The Yankees missed the playoffs, and without Cano the Ellsbury signing is a net loss in production for a team that was already terrible in run production.
That's besides the key factor in the last MLB playoffs, a lesson you also seem to have failed to comprehend. PITCHING PITCHING PITCHING. The Yankees don't have it.
http://blog.nj.com/yankees/2013/12/jacoby_ellsbury_is_no_brett_ga.html
To put this deal in perspective, it surpasses the seven year $142 million dollar deal the Red Sox gave to Carl Crawford in 2010. At that time Crawford was 29, and thus younger than Ellsbury, had been extremely healthy throughout his career appearing in at least 150 games in 6 out of 8 seasons and 140 games in 7 out of 8 seasons, and he had a long track record of consistent production resulting in a career WAR to that point of 35.4 (compared to 21 for Ellsbury). Since signing that contract Crawford has struggled to stay healthy and has been just a shell of his former self, posting a scant 2.3 WAR over 3 seasons.
Crawford's contract should now be something of a cautionary tale. But instead, the Yankees have completely ignored the lesson and given Ellsbury, a vastly inferior and less healthy player, an even larger contract. Bravo.
Compounding the inanity of this contract is the fact that the Yankees already have Brett Gardner on the team. I believe Gardner, who is also 30, has been one of the more underrated players in the game the last few years, and this contract only reinforces that. Gardner will be a free agent next year and it's hard to imagine anyone coming close to splurging on him like the Yankees did for Ellsbury. The shame of it is that believe it or not, Gardner may actually be the better player.
Oy Vey, :noidea:
Merlot
And the silliest comment award goes to...
So Cano's reaction to overpaying Ellsbury is going to be...OMG, there's little money left for me??? :lol: :lol: :lol: Either someone has no idea what team he roots for or this is a new epic low in absolute BS!!! So the same team Iggy has said can spend at will a never give a damn...the same team that had already given A-Rod TWO monster contracts (the second grossly larger than the first) all totaling $450 million and still came back to sign Sabathia for $180 million more on top of that...the same team that has set every standard for obscene sports contracts...the same team that broke their promise to hold the spending line and wouldn't know how to Google "fiscal constraint" is trying to say to Cano they don't have the money to pay him what he wants???
I have to apologize Joe.t. Da Beav just broke all records for saying the dumbest thing I've ever seen. You're totally right about the presence of EB being entertaining Doc. No one else would dare promote such BS then try to sell it as a "bold and aggressive move". Only on member could say anything so insanely convoluted and mean it. You called it Doc. :thumb:
The LoHud Yankees Blog
http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2013/12/03/report-yankees-sign-jacoby-ellsbury/
Shame Spencer December 3rd, 2013 at 8:37 pm
Going 7/150 for a player not NEARLY as durable as Cano but haggling with our future HOF 2B makes no sense to me
Captain Clutch December 3rd, 2013 at 8:37 pm
Are the Yanks trying to sign Ellsbury and Choo? Confused…
Is Cashman drunk? When the yanks actually do spend money they seem to spend it on the wrong players.
J. Alfred Prufrock December 3rd, 2013 at 8:42 pm
What a ridiculous signing.
30 years old, injury prone, speed his main weapon.
This wreaks of Red Sox paranoia.
Which is really comical if you think about it, since we’re the ones with the 27 WSC.
Cano had better be signed.
Newsflash Levine: no one’s rushing the pay $35 for parking and $100 for a ticket to watch Ellsbury misread balls.
Captain Clutch December 3rd, 2013 at 8:43 pm
Seriously is Cashman drunk or smoking something? Or is this a Randy Levine move?
blake December 3rd, 2013 at 8:38 pm
wanzies222 says:
December 3, 2013 at 8:37 pm
I’m gonna go with 189 = toast.
Appears you’re right unless they let cano go…..and then I’ll be pissed because Ellsbury for 150 is way worse than cano for 200
yankeefeminista December 3rd, 2013 at 8:41 pm
Mark Feinsand ?@FeinsandNYDN 1m
Yankees deal with Ellsbury is seven years and $153 million. That’s $12 million more than Crawford’s contract.
Wrong!!! He can.
What playoff team? Los Angeles, St. Louis, Pittsburgh, Atlanta, Detroit, Tampa Bay, Cleveland...the 3-time in this centruy World Series Champions BOSTON RED SOX? Oh that's right, all the Yankees fans disappeared aS fast as their team in September. No wonder you missed the news. The Yankees missed the playoffs, and without Cano the Ellsbury signing is a net loss in production for a team that was already terrible in run production.
That's besides the key factor in the last MLB playoffs, a lesson you also seem to have failed to comprehend. PITCHING PITCHING PITCHING. The Yankees don't have it.
http://blog.nj.com/yankees/2013/12/jacoby_ellsbury_is_no_brett_ga.html
To put this deal in perspective, it surpasses the seven year $142 million dollar deal the Red Sox gave to Carl Crawford in 2010. At that time Crawford was 29, and thus younger than Ellsbury, had been extremely healthy throughout his career appearing in at least 150 games in 6 out of 8 seasons and 140 games in 7 out of 8 seasons, and he had a long track record of consistent production resulting in a career WAR to that point of 35.4 (compared to 21 for Ellsbury). Since signing that contract Crawford has struggled to stay healthy and has been just a shell of his former self, posting a scant 2.3 WAR over 3 seasons.
Crawford's contract should now be something of a cautionary tale. But instead, the Yankees have completely ignored the lesson and given Ellsbury, a vastly inferior and less healthy player, an even larger contract. Bravo.
Compounding the inanity of this contract is the fact that the Yankees already have Brett Gardner on the team. I believe Gardner, who is also 30, has been one of the more underrated players in the game the last few years, and this contract only reinforces that. Gardner will be a free agent next year and it's hard to imagine anyone coming close to splurging on him like the Yankees did for Ellsbury. The shame of it is that believe it or not, Gardner may actually be the better player.
Oy Vey, :noidea:
Merlot
I'd think you care that they overpay if it means that they'll suck. If what they say about staying under the $189 M limit, then signing an outfielder at wild money when they're short two starters, a second baseman, and a DH is nothing short of foolish.
Maybe you should do more reading. Cano is in Seattle right now. However, a later report says they'll only go to $200 M.
Exactly. That's why Pierzynski signed with the Sox. To win. It was very clear from the outset that Ellsbury was going to go the highest bidder, even if it happens to be a team with no farm system, a gaggle of broken down senior citizens, and a mountain of albatross contracts. Ellsbury really didn't care that the Yanks are going to suck for the next 3-4 years. The minute they offered him a contract that no one else was going to come near, he jumped.
Seattle is not even in the top 7 according to Chercherfemmes, who has the Yankees as the favorites followed by the Mets, Tigers, Rangers, Nationals, Giants, and Dodgers.
The over/under on Ellsbury has now been established: http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/42775/vote-how-will-ellsbury-do-in-2014
Batting average: .299
Homers: 15.5
Stolen Bases: 39.5
Games: 129.5
I took all 4 overs because if he plays 150, the only one that could be tough is batting average as he adjusts his swing to pull the ball as have so many before him, including Damon. However I still think he will hit .300.
The over/under on Ellsbury has now been established: http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/42775/vote-how-will-ellsbury-do-in-2014
Batting average: .299
Homers: 15.5
Stolen Bases: 39.5
Games: 129.5
I took all 4 overs because if he plays 150, the only one that could be tough is batting average as he adjusts his swing to pull the ball as have so many before him, including Damon. However I still think he will hit .300.
Nice to see a Yankee fan has the Yankees as favorites. How convincing.
I just adore when you use a gambling site to make your argument. Really, it's very cute. Unfortunately, it doesn't really play on planet Earth.
BTW, you left something out: the guy who wrote the article and actually knows something about baseball, is taking the under on HR.
"Here's an overlay of Fenway Park and Yankee Stadium. Ellsbury did pull all nine of his home runs in 2013; but he didn't really pull the ball that often. Most of his fly balls went to left field and center field and looking at his hit chart I see maybe four fly balls that may have cleared the fences at Yankee Stadium. So unless he alters his approach a bit, which is possible, I'd probably take the under."
I'll also take the under on BA, since it's a bit over his career batting average and Fenway boosts lefty averages. His career BA away from Fenway is .288.
I'll take the over on SB, since they'll need him to run like crazy since the team ain't got much power. I'll also take the over on games played, since I think his injury rep is a mirage. Anybody's going to get hurt running into Adrian Beltre.
Foolish to a Billion Dollar Company or to a 65 yr old man on a escort review board? I think i will side with the billion dollar company, afterall they did not get there by being foolish
Actually, being foolish is exactly what got them into the mess they're in.
Here's a piece from Andrew Marchand on ESPN. He figures they have between $21 M and $31 M left to spend this winter. With the Kelly Johnson signing, you can take $3 out of that.
So let's try to do this math and see how much money the Yankees really have left to spend.
We should start with a running tally, kept by the New York Post's Joel Sherman. He calls it the Luxury Tax Meter. It computes how much money the Yankees have already committed to next year. You can find it here.
By his arithmetic, the Yankees have $116.38 million committed for 2014, not including the approximately $21.857 million AAV in Ellsbury's contract because it still isn't official.
That number does include A-Rod's $27.5 million AAV, because no verdict on his suspension hearing will be rendered for another month or so. Can you stand the suspense?
So if we went by that figure, the Yankees would have $73.66 million left between them and another luxury-tax bill. But …
An official of one club says his team's estimates say the Yankees actually have around $10 million more than that to play with, because some contract values are calculated differently than others. So let's say there's a chance they could have as much as $83 million worth of wiggle room. But …
Now let's add in Ellsbury's deal, which shrinks that number by close to $22 million. Kelly Johnson's addition will mean we're deducting a total of $25 million.
So that leaves the Yankees between $48 million and $58 million. But …
We need to calculate in some other stuff. Such as …
• Benefits payments: They come to between $10 million and $11 million, and count against the luxury-tax figure.
• Arbitration-eligible players: The Yankees currently have five of them (Brett Gardner, David Robertson, Ivan Nova, Shawn Kelley and Francisco Cervelli). Those five would eat up another $16 million or so, according to estimates by baseball-reference.com.
• Rest of the roster: If the Yankees filled out the roster with a bunch of young guys (which isn't going to happen, obviously), that would come to another $5.5 million. But let's ignore that for now, since the Yankees have, um, bigger plans.
So benefits and arbitration would chew up another $26-27 million. Which would seem to leave them between $21 million and $31 million to spend on Cano, Hiroki Kuroda, a bullpen arm and another starter -- ideally, Masahiro Tanaka.
Is that doable? It's hard to see how.
Kuroda made $15 million in 2013. He's not going to take a pay cut.
Tanaka is going to be the highest-paid Japanese player ever, by all accounts. He'll certainly have an AAV north of Yu Darvish's $10 million a year.
The Yankees have already offered Cano a contract that would average out to between $24 million and $25 million a season, according to multiple reports.
So, iggy, you and the Beav can spend all the time you'd like in la-la land, but back here in the real world, the Yanks don't have much to spend unless they decide to blow off the plans to stay under $189 M.
The Yankees have appreciated in value from $10,000,000 to $1 billion plus since 1973 per Forbes magazine, the greatest appreciation in value of any professional sports team in history. That did not happen from being foolish, it happened because they spent money. The Yankees understand that they have to pay consistently to win consistently. They have followed a blueprint of putting the money they make back into the team, unlike other teams who funnel it into the owners' other failing businesses. The ironic thing is that the dummy fans who weep for those teams who are portrayed by the media as underdogs that cannot compete withe the Yankees don't know that their owners are greedy fucken bastards who care more about profits than winning. I said this over and over again and if you took the Forbes magazine article and beat Rumples over the head with it he would still be spouting the same dummy statements. The proof is in the valuation of the team. It is no different than pumping money into your house and increasing its value, as opposed to your neighbor who never cuts his grass and instead uses the money for gambling at a casino. You don't root for people like that, you root against them.
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Never underestimate the Yanks pal, you should know better than that by now. Personally i really do hope they spend the 300mil i was kidding about, because it is totally legal within the rules, so why not? Plus it would give the haters something more to cry about. I imagine winning a WS makes them incredible profits overall so why not?
How many times have they won in the last 13 years while plowing over $2 Billion dollars in to payroll? I believe the answer is once.
Actually, none of them is failing. They are all making fortunes and their franchises are all exploding in value, though none so much as the Yankees, which is all about geography.
Actually, unlike you, I root for my team to win on the field. I personally don't care if they make money or not.
Let me make my point one more time. It's not about how much money they Yankees have to spend. It's about how much THEY HAVE SAID REPEATEDLY THEY ARE GOING TO SPEND. And within those budgetary constraints, the Ellsbury deal was remarkably foolish, as every writer in NY and most of the fans agree. If the Yanks were willing to go to $250 M, then fine, give Ells whatever you damn well please. The fact remains that they do not have the money left in their budget for more than 1 of the 3 starting pitchers they need, nor Cano.
Why not? It's simple to us on Earth. BECAUSE THEY HAVE SAID OVER 100 TIMES THAT THEY'RE NOT.
Exactly. It is business. You hit it on the head. And since their primary interest is making money, they have decided to keep the payroll under the $189 M threshold in order to avoid a 50% tax on the excess. If they spend $250 M, it will cost them an additional $30 M in luxury tax. If they stay under the threshold, the tax drops to 15% next year. It's all about business, just as you say.
Then, if they spend $250 M next year, the tax will be 15% of $60 M, or $9 M, rather than $30 M. The savings over the two years will amount to $51 M. That's why the Steinbrothers would rather suck this year than spend. That's why throwing a fool's fortune at Ellsbury made no sense at all.
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