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Murder in Kingston

Red Paul

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This is a true test of our multicultural society as the act so offends the principles of the majority. On the other hand, this is an occasion when we can truly demonstrate our tolerance and acceptance of other cultures.

IF these are truly honour killings WITHIN THEIR OWN SOCIETY then it would be improper to prosecute anyone... they acted in accordance with accepted norms of their society.

Yeah, like a lot of people have said, you've got to be joking.

One law for all. We don't live up to that standard, but we should.

Anyway, your post puts me in mind of a joke right-wingers like to tell. It goes back to Britain's imperial days in India. A slave trader says, "But you see, here it is our custom to own and sell slaves. Everyone must follow their customs" The Brit official replies, "Yes, but it's our custom to hang slave traders."
 

Hornee

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Kingston

I live in Kingston and this case was very strange from the very start. It was very weird, where the car went in the Rideau there were no tracks, no damage and you would have to been an excellent drive to manouver the car through the lock equpment on the shore. It was not an accident, the car was strategically placed in that spot and put in the river, right at the door of the locks at Kingston Mills. And I might add it went into the river backwards.

Very fishy.
 

ocean

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Dec 12, 2006
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Remember before making this into a religious tirade. I would like to remind you there were a lot of people who were out on the streets protesting (against Iran's leaders) for freedom and western values.

SO one must think before religious "labeling"

PS: Yes I do hop that a)the facts come to life, and b) whatever they get they get its not enough.
 

Techman

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Usually when someone takes a car for a joyride, they don't invite their two younger sisters and their 'aunt', who turns out to be their father's first wife who he is still married to, along for the ride. And then they happen to 'crash' into a canal but leave no damage in the immediate area that would indicate a loss of control or an accident.

Nothing suspicious there. :rolleyes:

Ocean, I don't believe that there is any place for superstitious religious beliefs in today's world. More people in history have been killed in the name of 'God' than for any other reason. The ridiculous dark ages belief in some supreme being makes as much sense as believing in the Loch Ness Monster or Bigfoot. In fact there is more evidence of the existence of those two things than there is of a god. Anyone seen any miracles lately?

Religions have had their day, now it's time to get real.
 

Mike Mercury

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Sep 10, 2005
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Ocean, I don't believe that there is any place for superstitious religious beliefs in today's world. ...Religions have had their day, now it's time to get real.

I have nothing but contempt for religion and its leaders, followers and enablers. The commies had it right. Ban it! However people, being the stupid, scared, ignoramuses that they are need their mindless rituals, their ugly icons and their silly easter bunny & tooth fairy stories.

Chistopher Hitchens

Richard Dawkins
 
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Techman

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Dec 23, 2004
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I have nothing but contempt for religion and its leaders, followers and enablers. The commies had it right. Ban it! However people, being the stupid, scared, ignoramuses that they are need their mindless rituals, their ugly icons and their silly easter bunny & tooth fairy stories.

Chistopher Hitchens

Richard Dawkins


People should just watch Religulous and Constantine's Sword. If they are still religious after that, there's no hope for them.

This song and the slide show that accompanies it is a perfect example of what belief in 'God' has brought to humanity. Your god is right...if you are the ones with the bigger weapons and the belief to use them. :(

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xF92JKKlfRM&feature=related
 

Possum Trot

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IF these are truly honour killings WITHIN THEIR OWN SOCIETY then it would be improper to prosecute anyone... they acted in accordance with accepted norms of their society.

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I think the law would be fairly clear here on this. The crimes were committed under Canadian jurisdiction and are therefore subject to Canadian laws and sanctions. No if ands, or buts , no conditional sentences. Foreigners are not afforded similar rights elsewhere in the world and no right thinking person would or should make exception in this case.

I'm somewhat shocked at the suggestion of abnormal leniency and futhermore very disappointed that there arn't more people from the Muslim community speaking out against this behaviour. This is just totally unacceptable in North America. Let us hope that community and religious leaders are witholding comment and condemnation until more is known or convictions are obtained.


The only thing I've seen so far is the following :
..."Jamal Kakar, executive director of the Afghan Association of Ontario, said arrests in the Shafia case have "shocked" Canada's approximately 120,000 strong Afghan community.

"It's really unbelievable to me," he said Thursday, noting colleagues are "very disappointed and very saddened" by what's happened.

He said culture shock is a very real problem for new immigrants and that it's not altogether uncommon for situations to become violent.

Organizations like his assist families with the transition, provide mediation and help newcomers understand the rules of their adopted country. He's calling on the government to invest more into services and resources for new immigrants so that things like honour killings won't happen.

"Every immigrant community needs services to prevent these types of incidents," he said.

It's a bit self serving but at least it's something. If this in fact turns out to be a so-called honour killng I say shame on anyone who considers thenselves to be a leader of a Canadian Muslim community who does not publically condem these practices.
 

Dee

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Ocean, I don't believe that there is any place for superstitious religious beliefs in today's world.

Uhm, who are we to tell others to get rid of their gods:

CANADIAN CHARTER OF RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS

Whereas Canada is founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law:







Red Paul said:
One law for all. We don't live up to that standard,

Ain't that the truth....

Criminal Code of Canada:
718.2 A court that imposes a sentence shall also take into consideration the following principles:

(e) all available sanctions other than imprisonment that are reasonable in the circumstances should be considered for all offenders, with particular attention to the circumstances of aboriginal offenders.
 

Techman

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Dec 23, 2004
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Actually, jhg, we have both video and audio footage of the Police statement being made. That is not open to distortion by the media.

Dee, people can worship whatever god they desire. I don't care if it's Anubis or Jehovah or Thor the God of Thunder. As long as their superstitious beliefs don't conflict with my lack of same I really don't give a damn.
 

Kepler

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May 17, 2006
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Afghanistan...Bring our troops back home!!!


We had no troops in Afghanistan prior to 2001, and that lead to dozens of Canadians dying on Sep. 11th, 2001. To let Afghanistan go back to being a safe haven for terrorists would be a catastrophe.

Also, the overwhelming majority of Afghans (and Arabs) reject honour killings. Why condemn hundreds of millions for the crimes of a handful? We don't judge all white men by that standard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nm-z5smrrT8
 

Dee

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The Thin Edge of the Wedge

By the narrowest of margins the Supreme Court in Ottawa just said that people who belong to religions that hold sacred the 2nd commandment (TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.' ) are not entitled to follow their religious briefs and must be photographed....

What is happening to our open Canada????? ... if it is against their religion why in (dare I say it) Gawd's name are we forcing them to breach one of the 10 commandments....

We are on the path to ignore the "honour" of one great religion and are now attacking one of the 10 commandments!!! Stop the insanity!
 

TheOne

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Dee, you are one misguided soul. If you think that the crap that that moron did is honourable or permitted because of what he believes, you are just as bad in my books as he is.

In my opinion he, his son and wife should be hung, still alive and let people torture them at will for a while before doing the HONOURABLE mercy killing.
 

bond_james_bond

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Speaking of the Canadian Charter, there is Section 7:

7. Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of the person and the right not to be deprived thereof except in accordance with the principles of fundamental justice.

The victims had a right to life and liberty.

So, is the right of religious freedom so great for the perpetrators, that they are allowed to deprive others of their rights?
 

Possum Trot

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Criminal Code of Canada:
718.2 A court that imposes a sentence shall also take into consideration the following principles:

(e) all available sanctions other than imprisonment that are reasonable in the circumstances should be considered for all offenders, with particular attention to the circumstances of aboriginal offenders.

Aborigine
1. one of the original or earliest known inhabitants of a country or region ( in this case Canada).
aboriginal
Aboriginal
2 of, pertaining to, or typical of aborigines

The suspects are therefore not aboriginal for the purposes of the Criminal Code of Canada/

What is happening to our open Canada????? ... if it is against their religion why in (dare I say it) Gawd's name are we forcing them to breach one of the 10 commandments....

We are on the path to ignore the "honour" of one great religion and are now attacking one of the 10 commandments

Perhaps you would like to show us where exactly in the Koran it advocates honour killing. Not that it makes the slightest bit of difference but I think you will be hard pressed to argue that this is a religious belief. I think you are blurring/confusing customs and laws in certain Muslim countries with the Muslim religion.

Sort like thinking that not turning right on a red light in Montreal is part of the Catholic religion.
 
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YouVantOption

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Just for the record

This Islamophobic, anti-Arab discussion isn't surprising, but nevertheless vile.

These people committed a crime illegal in all societies: murder. They should pay the price as our society deems fit - it was apparently pre-meditated murder, and will invariably be argued that way in a court of law.

Those that advocate torture are as inhuman and inhumane as these murderers.
 

Possum Trot

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This Islamophobic, anti-Arab discussion isn't surprising, but nevertheless vile.

.

I don't think any of this discussion is anti-arab at all. It seems to me that it is anti-perp in the specific and anti-honour killing in the generic. In fact I don't see any anti-arab comments in this thread. The closest is anti-Afganistan or the one that Muslim women don't make good escorts.

With respect to the posters who advocate the death penalty as punishment , you get these comments in respect of any vile murder - the latest being the Stafford murder.

People should not confuse what is common or acceptable practice in certain countries and generalize that across a race or religion. So far we have been vey good about that here. In fact one Arab publication suggests that the effort to be too politically correct may be detrimental to developing policies and practices to deal more effectively to prevent these types of things.

As far as North America is concerned there are a couple of articles on point:
A 2007 study by Dr. Amin Muhammad and Dr. Sujay Patel of Memorial University, Canada, showed how Islamic honour killings have been brought to Canada. He wrote: "When people come and settle in Canada they can bring their traditions and forcefully follow them. In some cultures, people feel some boundaries are never to be crossed, and if someone would violate those practices or go against it, then murder is justified to them." He also noted that there are hundreds of cases annually in his native Pakistan. He added that "In different cultures, they can get away without being punished -- the courts actually sanction them under religious contexts"[36]

Honor killings appear to be rare in the United States, because only a few cases have made major headlines. On New Year's Day, 2008, Yaser Said was accused of killing his daughters Amina (18) and Sarah (17) after finding out they had boyfriends (named Eddie and Eric, respectively).[37] Said remains at large and has been featured on America's Most Wanted. In July 2008, John P. Avlon (of the New York Post) claimed that the death of 25-year-old Sandeela Kanwal (allegedly by Chaudhry Rashid) as an "American Honour Killing."[38] The Muzzammil Hassan case has been characterized by some as an honor killing.[39]

An article in the Spring 2009 edition of Middle East Quarterly[40] argues that the United States is far behind Europe in acknowledging that honor killings are a special form of domestic violence, requiring special training and special programs to protect the young women and girls most subject to it. The article suggests that the fear of being labeled "culturally insensitive" prevents US government officials and the media from both identifying and accurately reporting these incidents as "honor killings" when they occur. Failing to accurately describe the problem makes it more difficult to develop public policies to address it.
 
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Dee

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In my opinion he, his son and wife should be hung, still alive and let people torture them at will...

Yes indeed, that does seem to be the honourable thing to do...

The accused have much to learn from us... they have to learn that an honour killing takes away the chance to torture those we don't agree with before finally murdering them; they should learn from us to prolong their suffering, make them beg for death but only deliver that sweet mercy when they are beyond feeling the pain and horror any longer. We'll show them what honour is all about.

BTW where do you buy those WWDCD* bracelets?

*What Would Dick Chaney Do
 
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