Permanent NHL Free For All Thread
- Thread starter joelcairo
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I was simply replying to Marc7's post.
Funny, but not long after i made my post, i tuned in to a Montreal radio station & well-known hockey writer Yvon Pedneault was host Jean-Charles Lavoie's guest. They were talking about Boston's last two games & wondered what had happened to Boston over the past couple of seasons.
They then began talking about their reasons for giving up on Tyler Seguin and Phil Kessel this early into their career. Both were 20 years old when the Bruins gave up on them. I'm not sure how reliable this info is, but there were saying that both were shipped out of Boston because as 18-19 year olds, the Bruins didn't like their off-ice habits. They mentionned the time when Seguin stayed in the same clothing for 3 days during their playoffs series against the Leafs. However, i wasn't aware that Kessel had a similar problem..that he liked to party. I mean, the only place i can imagine Kessel going for fun is at a video arcade.
Anyways, they were lamenting the fact that the Bruins should have known better & should have known what to expect when they make multi-millionaires out of 18-year old hockey players. They added that it's surprising that they weren't more patient with these two very talented kids, and simply pressed the panic button one day & shipped Tyler Seguin out of Boston. It was mentionned that other superstars such as Evgeni Malkin & Sidney Crosby were closely monitored & well surrounded when they first joined the league. The likes of Mario Lemieux & Sergei Gonchar took good care of Crosby and Malking for the first few years of their career, having them stay at their respective residences.
BOYZ,
I don't remember why they got rid of Kessel. He has significant talent but he's not a well rounded as other players and there were other focus issues. Seguin's performance in his last full year got worse and worse, and he pretty much collapsed in the playoffs. Then the next year he did not seem to be pulling out of it, to the contrary he seemed to be staying as poor as he was at the end of the previous year. Then remember the Bruins have been in a position to compete and possibly win a Stanley Cup for some time and a part of the thinking was certainly what value can we get for a player like a seemingly troubled under-performing Seguin that could help the team win..."this year". For 7 straight years they made it to the quarter-finals and for 5 of them to the semi-finals of better. When you are in the position of having a real chance of winning it all what do you do with someone who seems to be sliding headlong into mediocrity or worse. He's not making a positive contribution so it's very tempting to find anyone who might help a little more. Maybe that's a big part of the lack of patience, but Seguin did seem like a very hard case at the time.
But I agree, don't pay a man-child like he's a solid star. Aside from that a developing team would have a lot more patience and maybe he just fit better into another system. Claude Julien emphasizes defense first, something Kessel had trouble with and something that Seguin may not have felt suited him. Still, basic maturity and professionalism was a serious issue. Are either of them really playing now the way Julien would prefer, a way that would now benefit Boston, or are these two players in systems that let them play more like the way they want. Both players went to teams that have not made it in the playoff show despite the fact these individuals seem to be doing much better. Sure the Bruins could really use them, but what are they overall. Was Julien really wrong or right? Either way I think the Bruins could and should have managed both players better. The issues the decisions about them created seem to be rising for the worse at this time...not that it's gotten their new teams where they want to be either.
Cheers,
Merlot
I don't remember why they got rid of Kessel. He has significant talent but he's not a well rounded as other players and there were other focus issues. Seguin's performance in his last full year got worse and worse, and he pretty much collapsed in the playoffs. Then the next year he did not seem to be pulling out of it, to the contrary he seemed to be staying as poor as he was at the end of the previous year. Then remember the Bruins have been in a position to compete and possibly win a Stanley Cup for some time and a part of the thinking was certainly what value can we get for a player like a seemingly troubled under-performing Seguin that could help the team win..."this year". For 7 straight years they made it to the quarter-finals and for 5 of them to the semi-finals of better. When you are in the position of having a real chance of winning it all what do you do with someone who seems to be sliding headlong into mediocrity or worse. He's not making a positive contribution so it's very tempting to find anyone who might help a little more. Maybe that's a big part of the lack of patience, but Seguin did seem like a very hard case at the time.
But I agree, don't pay a man-child like he's a solid star. Aside from that a developing team would have a lot more patience and maybe he just fit better into another system. Claude Julien emphasizes defense first, something Kessel had trouble with and something that Seguin may not have felt suited him. Still, basic maturity and professionalism was a serious issue. Are either of them really playing now the way Julien would prefer, a way that would now benefit Boston, or are these two players in systems that let them play more like the way they want. Both players went to teams that have not made it in the playoff show despite the fact these individuals seem to be doing much better. Sure the Bruins could really use them, but what are they overall. Was Julien really wrong or right? Either way I think the Bruins could and should have managed both players better. The issues the decisions about them created seem to be rising for the worse at this time...not that it's gotten their new teams where they want to be either.
Cheers,
Merlot
I think that the Leafs should be congratulated for their record setting performances the last two games.
Not only did they manage to lose to Buffalo, but they allowed more goals than any Buffalo opponent this season or the entire last season. Next game, they let by 9 goals, more than they have in an entire generation at home(since 1991). Sadly, possibly because Nashville relaxed, they played shut-out hockey for the last 2.5 minutes or they might have set an even impressive record. They must be approaching the record of team jerseys returned by air mail without asking for a refund.
Last week, they were flirting with mediocrity, but as cream rises to the top and shit sinks to the bottom, they are back in 18th place. There is a long season ahead, so I am confident that they can overcome being 4 points out of the top five for the draft lottery.
Not only did they manage to lose to Buffalo, but they allowed more goals than any Buffalo opponent this season or the entire last season. Next game, they let by 9 goals, more than they have in an entire generation at home(since 1991). Sadly, possibly because Nashville relaxed, they played shut-out hockey for the last 2.5 minutes or they might have set an even impressive record. They must be approaching the record of team jerseys returned by air mail without asking for a refund.
Last week, they were flirting with mediocrity, but as cream rises to the top and shit sinks to the bottom, they are back in 18th place. There is a long season ahead, so I am confident that they can overcome being 4 points out of the top five for the draft lottery.
So, how did the habs do last night? The game was blacked out in my area & i haven't checked any of the scores yet.
OH OUCH!
Wow, you're brutal when you are on a roll. Yup, they haven't been playing the depleted Bruins or been motivated to avenge an embarrassing loss. The hit some real tough meat in their schedule. It still would not have been that bad to have lost all 3 games, but to get trounced speaks poorly. Playoff winners are the ones who can make a game of it no matter who they face. Momentary passion and drive for rivalry won't pass for what makes a Stanley Cup Champion if that's what makes the difference. The difference has to be professional steadiness, the fortitude to put out the best nearly every time, not just feeling passionate at times. It has to be consistent or you're still an also-ran team.
As for Montreal they have a great record so far. But I look at that overall +4 point differential despite the big difference between wins and losses and say UH OH! It's the same differential the Bruins have. Their goals for and against are almost perfectly balanced, which means...if you will pardon the most obvious pun...they're just skating by on those wins despite the much higher number of wins. That does show toughness, but it's a damn risky margin to rely on and does not bode well for the future unless that situation is only some early season development issue that can be solved one way or another.
Meanwhile the Bruins got back Krejci and lost Marchand, Montreal's move beloved Bruin.
Oh well, comme ci, comme ca.
Cheers y'all,
Merlot
Wow, you're brutal when you are on a roll. Yup, they haven't been playing the depleted Bruins or been motivated to avenge an embarrassing loss. The hit some real tough meat in their schedule. It still would not have been that bad to have lost all 3 games, but to get trounced speaks poorly. Playoff winners are the ones who can make a game of it no matter who they face. Momentary passion and drive for rivalry won't pass for what makes a Stanley Cup Champion if that's what makes the difference. The difference has to be professional steadiness, the fortitude to put out the best nearly every time, not just feeling passionate at times. It has to be consistent or you're still an also-ran team.
As for Montreal they have a great record so far. But I look at that overall +4 point differential despite the big difference between wins and losses and say UH OH! It's the same differential the Bruins have. Their goals for and against are almost perfectly balanced, which means...if you will pardon the most obvious pun...they're just skating by on those wins despite the much higher number of wins. That does show toughness, but it's a damn risky margin to rely on and does not bode well for the future unless that situation is only some early season development issue that can be solved one way or another.
Meanwhile the Bruins got back Krejci and lost Marchand, Montreal's move beloved Bruin.
Oh well, comme ci, comme ca. Cheers y'all,
Merlot
The Bruins didn't really want to trade Kessel. What led to the trade was the fact he was a restricted free agent who felt he was being low-balled by the Bruins. Not surprising, since their owner Jeremy Jacobs has long been known as being very cheap. What happened was no different than the P.K. Subban situation 2 years ago, when Subban felt the same way about the Habs. He wasn't happy simply signing a 'bridge' contract for lower dollars & decided to hold out. He held out for a month. It's impossible to know if Kessel would have wound up holding out, since the trade was made prior to the start of the regular season that year. Since Kessel had no negotiating leverage (just like P.K.), he likely wouldn't have stayed home very long had he elected to hold out.
So what happened in Kessel's situation was that his agent spoke with Toronto & Toronto was willing to make a trade for him with Boston instead of just simply signing him and losing four 1st-round picks. The Leafs never would have signed him at that price. Boston had also made it known that they would have matched any offer sheet signed by Kessel. This is difficult to believe since they wound up with less than if they would have allowed Kessel to walk away as a free agent. However, Boston was quite aware that Toronto had no intention to sign Kessel to an offer sheet & that's why they ended up making the trade: a 1st and 2nd round pick in 2010, and a 1st in 2011. From the Leafs standpoint, it was a very good deal and it's easy to see why. They also didn't expect to finish last in 2010 when they previously made the trade. Had they finished in the middle of the pack, the pick Boston got might not even have ever been heard of.
Kessel played only 3 seasons in Boston. The last two were under Claude Julien. It's quite possible that he wasn't pleased with Kessel's defensive game (which i've never heard about), but Kessel was only 19 and 20 years old when he played under Julien. Very few players that age are good defensively. Same thing with Tyler Seguin.
My assessment of why both players were traded by the Bruins were:
1) Kessel: It was financial reasons and nothing more. He had battled testicular cancer during his time in Boston, so maybe that also had something to do with it. They might have feared a recurrence of the illness in the future & he wasn't worth the gamble.
2) Seguin: Mostly attitude. Immaturity. But i'm sure financial reasons also was a big part of it. They had given him a big contract, bypassing the 'bridge' option. They probably regretted later giving him all that money considering his attitude/immaturity and the fact he wasn't producing as much as they hoped considering the money they were paying him. But they failed to realize that he wasn't even 20 years old yet. The problems they encountered with him actually should have been expected & not the other way around.
It is my opinion that both of these trades were extreme "FAILS" for the Bruins. Just a few days ago, both Seguin & Kessel were tied for the 3rd spot for scoring. I doubt any of the players the Bruins got for any of these players will ever be in the top 15 in scoring, let alone top 50.
But as hard it is to believe, there is at least one other trade that was a bigger FAIL for Boston:
The Joe Thornton trade to San Jose. That was absolutely a terrible, terrible trade for the Bruins!!! Absolutely awful!!!!
By the way, does anyone know the real reason why Claude Julien was fired by Lou Lamoriello back in April 2007 with only 3 games left to go in the regular season?
"On April 2, 2007, the New Jersey Devils abruptly terminated Julien, despite his coaching the Devils to a 47–24–8 record which at the time was leading the Atlantic Division and tied for the second-best record in the Eastern Conference. Devils general manager Lou Lamoriello said that despite the team's stellar record, he didn't feel Julien had it ready for the playoffs. Lamoriello himself replaced Julien, the second straight season in which Lamoriello left the front office to coach the Devils at the end of the season. The Devils went on to lose in the Eastern Conference Semifinal to the Ottawa Senators."
Lamoriello hadn't coached since 1983, when he coached NCAA hockey. Julien must have done something absolutely awful or scandalous for him to be given the hook just prior to the playoffs and at the time having the 2nd best record in the East Conference, in his only season in NJ. This was a very strange firing & it's surprising no one has bothered to find out the truth behind the incident.
BOYZ,
I agree these trades have been a major failing for Boston because they have wasted resources, time, money, and potential during a period of several years when they might have taken it all more than once, and came very close a second time. It will catch up to them in the futrue unless the players they did get prove more valuable than their current skills level suggests. The team could well be on the way down in the near future because of some sometimes logical but inevitably poor choices.
However, so Kessel has been great for scoring. That is wonderful publicity for the team and brand name sales/profits. But if you look at the overall team results scoring champs are nothing more than sugar-sweet candy to keep fan smiling that changes nothing if the team does not progress. Verlander won the MVP. Awesome, where is that Tiger's World Series trophy? Sidney Crosby won the hart Trophy. Where is the Penguins Stanley Cup that year?
I don't have to ask you or your pal if you'd give up all the individual awards for your players to get one more Stanley Cup. Yes, I get b the point Toronto has been wiser with trades. Still, the Leafs are +4 in goal differential after 19 games, 1 game above .500, in 6th place in the Atlantic division. Your team beat the crap out of the Bruins yet the Leafs trail 3 places down from them. So Kessel is doing great. That alone is not getting the team much toward the real goal. I'd actually love to see the Leafs win in all. They've got a very loyal fan base that deserves it. It's not going to happen the way things are because even though the team has seemed to make wiser trades than the Bruins the Leafs have not seemed to progress, and that's the point.
BTW Doc - talk about paying too much do you remember:
Jeff Finger was a 27-year-old defenceman with 94 NHL games under his belt when Cliff Fletcher and the Leafs signed him to a four-year, $14-million contract on the first day of free agency in the summer of 2008.
It was a questionable move, no doubt, but Fletcher & Co. were championing Finger’s seemingly untapped shutdown ability.
With a little research, Dan Tolensky revealed it was more likely Kurt Sauer whom the Leafs intended to sign. Finger finished his relatively lucrative deal in the AHL with the Toronto Marlies.
Every team make big mistakes.
GOLeafsGO, :thumb:
Merlot
I agree these trades have been a major failing for Boston because they have wasted resources, time, money, and potential during a period of several years when they might have taken it all more than once, and came very close a second time. It will catch up to them in the futrue unless the players they did get prove more valuable than their current skills level suggests. The team could well be on the way down in the near future because of some sometimes logical but inevitably poor choices.
However, so Kessel has been great for scoring. That is wonderful publicity for the team and brand name sales/profits. But if you look at the overall team results scoring champs are nothing more than sugar-sweet candy to keep fan smiling that changes nothing if the team does not progress. Verlander won the MVP. Awesome, where is that Tiger's World Series trophy? Sidney Crosby won the hart Trophy. Where is the Penguins Stanley Cup that year?
I don't have to ask you or your pal if you'd give up all the individual awards for your players to get one more Stanley Cup. Yes, I get b the point Toronto has been wiser with trades. Still, the Leafs are +4 in goal differential after 19 games, 1 game above .500, in 6th place in the Atlantic division. Your team beat the crap out of the Bruins yet the Leafs trail 3 places down from them. So Kessel is doing great. That alone is not getting the team much toward the real goal. I'd actually love to see the Leafs win in all. They've got a very loyal fan base that deserves it. It's not going to happen the way things are because even though the team has seemed to make wiser trades than the Bruins the Leafs have not seemed to progress, and that's the point.
BTW Doc - talk about paying too much do you remember:
Jeff Finger was a 27-year-old defenceman with 94 NHL games under his belt when Cliff Fletcher and the Leafs signed him to a four-year, $14-million contract on the first day of free agency in the summer of 2008.
It was a questionable move, no doubt, but Fletcher & Co. were championing Finger’s seemingly untapped shutdown ability.
With a little research, Dan Tolensky revealed it was more likely Kurt Sauer whom the Leafs intended to sign. Finger finished his relatively lucrative deal in the AHL with the Toronto Marlies.
Every team make big mistakes.
GOLeafsGO, :thumb:
Merlot
8 great moments in Leafs embarrassment
http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/embarrasing-leafs-moments/
http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/embarrasing-leafs-moments/
I agree that individual players don't necessarily win Stanley Cups. However, it's been done in the past. The Mtl Canadiens of the 40's, 50's and 70's all had superstars. The Edmonton Oilers with the likes of Wayne Gretzky, Mark Messier & Jarri Kurri. The Pittsburgh Penguins with the likes of Mario Lemieux, Jaromir Jagr & Sidney Crosby. More recently the Chicago Blackhawks with the likes of Patrick Kane, Jonathan Toews and Duncan Keith.
But let's be honest: Tim Thomas won the Stanley Cup for the Bruins in 2011. He was absolutely phenomenal!!!
By the way, when is Marc Savard's contract coming off the books? Is it this season? Or will it ever come off the books?
p.s. I never liked the Jeff Finger signing. I really thought Cliff Fletcher was suffering from dementia when he jumped the gun and signed this nobody, whom i had never heard about. Rumour has it (and an insider confirmed it to me) that Fletcher somehow mixed up Finger for a different player when he signed him. The same source also confirmed to me that the Leafs were the only suitor (along with Colorado) when Fletcher signed Finger to that big contract.
Last friday the Toronto Raptors held a fundraiser to honor Nelson Mandela on the one year anniversary of his death.
Here are Leafs goalie Jonathan Bernier's comments on Mandela.
[video=youtube_share;BG2yELLZgB8]http://youtu.be/BG2yELLZgB8[/video]
If there was still any doubt this guy is Leafs' material they're gone now. :lol:
What a fucking moron. :faint:
Here are Leafs goalie Jonathan Bernier's comments on Mandela.
[video=youtube_share;BG2yELLZgB8]http://youtu.be/BG2yELLZgB8[/video]
If there was still any doubt this guy is Leafs' material they're gone now. :lol:
What a fucking moron. :faint:
And to think he was born and raised in Ontario and he rooted for Toronto as a kid, oh wait a minute ......:nono: scratch that idea :lol:
thanks ballsy that was way too easy lol.
......:nono: scratch that idea :lol:thanks ballsy that was way too easy lol.
Oh well, i've always been under the impression that Quebecers were geographically & historically challenged when it came to anything outside of Quebec.
For decades when i told locals that i lived in a province west of Quebec, they'd immediately say "Oh, you're from Toronto." Then i'd say "actually no, i'm nearly as far from Toronto as i am from Mtl"....and they'd reply "Oh, you must be from Ottawa. I was in Ottawa once when i was a child....." For the record, Ottawa is barely 2 hours away from Mtl.
And if i ask them who the PM of Canada is, half of them aren't sure. If i ask them who the Premier of Ontario is, almost all of them have no clue. At least half of them don't even know who their own Premier is. A year ago i asked this question to an sp and she replied "Bourassa??" I had to inform her that former Quebec Premier Robert Bourassa had passed away several years earlier.
So no, i'm not entirely surprised at Bernier's answer since he grew up in Quebec. Maybe he got him mixed up with Jean Believeau, who knows. My feeling is that like most Quebecers, he had never heard the name "Nelson Mandela" until that night when he attended the Raptors/Cavaliers game & they just happened to honor Mandela at that game. Why honor a political figure at a basketball game you may ask? Well, maybe Bernier has a point. I have no idea why. I also have no idea why we still sing the national anthems at sports entertainment events. Do we sing the national anthem prior to a music concert? Does it happen prior to a movie? So why prior to a professional game of hockey, basketball, baseball or other??
For decades when i told locals that i lived in a province west of Quebec, they'd immediately say "Oh, you're from Toronto." Then i'd say "actually no, i'm nearly as far from Toronto as i am from Mtl"....and they'd reply "Oh, you must be from Ottawa. I was in Ottawa once when i was a child....." For the record, Ottawa is barely 2 hours away from Mtl.
And if i ask them who the PM of Canada is, half of them aren't sure. If i ask them who the Premier of Ontario is, almost all of them have no clue. At least half of them don't even know who their own Premier is. A year ago i asked this question to an sp and she replied "Bourassa??" I had to inform her that former Quebec Premier Robert Bourassa had passed away several years earlier.
So no, i'm not entirely surprised at Bernier's answer since he grew up in Quebec. Maybe he got him mixed up with Jean Believeau, who knows. My feeling is that like most Quebecers, he had never heard the name "Nelson Mandela" until that night when he attended the Raptors/Cavaliers game & they just happened to honor Mandela at that game. Why honor a political figure at a basketball game you may ask? Well, maybe Bernier has a point. I have no idea why. I also have no idea why we still sing the national anthems at sports entertainment events. Do we sing the national anthem prior to a music concert? Does it happen prior to a movie? So why prior to a professional game of hockey, basketball, baseball or other??
The lowly Florida Panthers BEAT the Dead Things AGAIN tonight! And in Deadtroit!
Rumours were flying on the net yesterday that mike babcock was offered a contract extension but it appears those rumours are false as babcock himself said there is no truth to it and he will not negotiate during the season. It has been speculated all along that babcock wants to test the free agent market in the offseason. This will be a MAJOR "blow" to the "things" if they lose babcock, but they could always hire back Paul MacLean I suppose.
Rumours were flying on the net yesterday that mike babcock was offered a contract extension but it appears those rumours are false as babcock himself said there is no truth to it and he will not negotiate during the season. It has been speculated all along that babcock wants to test the free agent market in the offseason. This will be a MAJOR "blow" to the "things" if they lose babcock, but they could always hire back Paul MacLean I suppose.
The Dead Things have only themselves to blame if Babcock leaves the organization for greener pastures. All he wants is to be the highest paid hockey coach on the planet. Right now Joel Quenneville has this honor, and Babcock feels that he's as worthy as Quenneville.
Many speculate that the reason Babcock has yet to sign an extension is because the Things don't have the money to re-sign him at the price he wants, which is likely the truth. It is also speculated that only a few teams in the NHL have the ressources to pay their coach $4 million plus. Toronto is one of them. But there are others.
The Leafs are actually playing pretty good hockey right now and i attribute this success to not only the players and great goaltending, but to the coaching staff itself. Carlyle has made adjustments and the assistant coaches that were brought in (such as Steve Spott and Peter Hornacek) have fit in quite well with both the players and Carlyle.
I'm not saying that Babcock will be a saviour if he's ever hired by the Leafs. He might even be a tougher coach to play for than Carlyle. Therefore, i'm not so certain the current Leafs roster would prefer playing for Babcock over Carlyle, so maybe that's why many of them took their heads out of their asses and finally started playing good hockey.
If the Rangers falter, it woudn't surprise me if they made a run at Babcock. Same thing for the habs. Babcock played and coached at McGill and the habs owners have the ressources to pay Babcock what he'd ask for. But wait.....he doesn't speak french! So i suppose this means he's got no chance to ever coach the habs!
It still amazes me that many locals i've met over the years replied to me that since i live as far from Toronto as i do from Montreal, that i must live in Ottawa, which is less than 2 hours away from Mtl. It amazes me even more that half of them had never been to Ottawa (or Ontario, which is next door to their province) or had possibly visited once as a child.
Or more recently, when an sp i'd seen several times over the years asked: "You told me you're from Boston, right?" (No, i'm from Ontario). "Oh, you're from Toronto." (No). "So if your closer to Mtl and you don't live in Ottawa, they you must be from Windsor." (No, i've never been to Windsor). "Where's Windsor anyways? (It's on the other side of Toronto and near the Ontario border....right across Detroit). "Where's Detroit? Is that in Canada?" I gave up. lol
Okay, now back to hockey matters.......
Does anyone now not realize how important Carey Price is to the habs franchise? He faced 46 shots last night and still managed to allow only 2 goals. Habs were grossly dominated throughout the game, yet found a way to win 6-2. Sure enough, they faced the Kings' backup goalie who wasn't sharp, but still.
Hey guys, I would stop bashng the Dead Things (Red Wngs). No, I am not a fan of Detroit, I kinda hate them, and I am not Joel (under another handle).
Detroit are getting secondary scoring from many other players and other lines. They remind me of what the Leafs have been doing this year. There are seven Leafs forwards outside the top line, that are averaging about 15+ minutes per game. I can't recall the last time the Leafs 3rd line (and 4th too) was this dependable. Also, both teams are now in the top 10 in points, and do not have a top 10 goalie.
Detroit are getting secondary scoring from many other players and other lines. They remind me of what the Leafs have been doing this year. There are seven Leafs forwards outside the top line, that are averaging about 15+ minutes per game. I can't recall the last time the Leafs 3rd line (and 4th too) was this dependable. Also, both teams are now in the top 10 in points, and do not have a top 10 goalie.
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