The Death Penalty to 40 years old Vince Li !! See him I have the link !!

[JustBob]

Is it safe to assume the majority of people who are tough on crime would be much more likely to defend themselves in the case of a home invasion when compared to people who believe in turning the other cheek

No. You're confusing real life with internet machismo.

 

[Daringly]

No. You`re confusing real life with internet machismo.

Here`s a link to the thread i was referring to, yeah if somebody broke into your home you would give them a kiss and a hug and serve them milk and cookies, why am i not surprised


https://merb.cc/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=27782&highlight=home+invasion

 

[JustBob]

No. You're confusing real life with internet machismo.

Is there an echo in here?

Explanation since it went over your head the first time:

Macho guys on internet forum who brag that they would kick someone's ass if... bla bla bla would probably be the first ones to bolt and run to their mommies.

 

[Daringly]

No. You're confusing real life with internet machismo.

Is there an echo in here?

Explanation since it went over your head the first time:

Macho guys on internet forum who brag that they would kick someone's ass if... bla bla bla would probably be the first ones to bolt and run to their mommies.

You just make sure you keep a fresh supply of milk and cookies around and i will take my chances with my alarm system and a couple of well placed baseball bats

 

[Regular Guy]

The Real Issue

This is speculation on my part, but I believe when all is said and done Mr. Li will be found to be criminally insane. Sane persons do not behead, gut, and then eat the raw flesh of their seat mates and display the head like a trophy. In Connecticut such a person would probably be found not guilty by reason of insanity and then committed to an institute for the criminally insane. I am sure Li's attorney will plead an insanity defense if supported by the relevant psychiatric examination that was done. It will not be a great leap by any shrink to find this guy to be incompetent to stand trial by reason of insanity.

EB
I had more or less made all of the arguments I had to make here. But your post brings to mind a point I made earlier on in the thread. A man who killed a very popular sportscaster some years ago in Ottawa (shot him to death point blank in the parking lot of the television station) was found to be criminally insane. He was put away, time marched on and the incident passed from the public ken. Meanwhile in the Institution where he was kept they attempted treatment. Just speculating here but perhaps they were getting overcrowded. Perhaps they began to convince each other of the belief of psychology as an exact science. Perhaps he conned them successfully. I don't know. For whatever the reason he was deemed fit and released back into society. Not long ago he attempted travel to the US. When US border officials became aware of his past they attempted to detain him. He attacked a US border guard. It was just lucky he was not able to come by a weapon. This guy was subsequently found to be a complete looney tunes – again. What the hell was he doing back on the street? Is this part of popular sentiment today that we have a kinder gentler way?
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20071203/arenburg_court_071203/20071203?hub=Canada
At present in one or more Canadian cities health officials have come up with the new “clever” way to combat drug use in our neighbourhoods. It is called the needle exchange program. Just pop down to your friendly neighbourhood needle dispensary and you can get all the needles you like – FREE. Of course if you don't have one to give back because you lost it, that's okay. Hey after all it will prevent disease like hepatitis, HIV etc. They even have free injection sites. Sounds very enlightened eh? Well people are going ballistic. Children are finding them in playgrounds and getting stuck with them. They are all over parks. Addicts are still sharing needles (either through habit or because it is a social thing I don't know). The needles are in back yards. Drug use has increased and disease rates have not fallen. Yet you would not believe how vehemently those who proposed this Disney Land scenario will support it. But then again it is always possible to tweak the stats when it comes right down to it, isn't it.

And we all know just how tough life in prison is in Canada. Our prisons are not called “Club Fed” for nothing. And the “Young Offenders Act” fiasco is now well known to all Canadians. Thank God the Conservative party is acting to revise the legislation. It is almost at times as if a form of temporary insanity overcomes us all when it comes to making decisions which affect the security of ourselves and our families. I could go on but there are those who can state the case more eloquently than I. I suggest for those who are interested that they read the works ("The Con Game") of the author and talk show host Michael Harris. He is a recognized expert on the subject. (You can get him either online streaming CFRA 580 am radio (Ottawa) or in Montreal directly.)

And it doesn't end there. There are other social policies implemented which on the surface seemingly have nothing to do with this issue but which can often be seen to have a direct influence on the promotion of stability in our society.

For those proponents of capital punishment in this thread, the one overriding concern I am sensing in all their arguments is a recognition that we should not be approaching the issue of how we respond to capital crimes in our society in a cavalier fashion. And in that regard I couldn't agree more.

 

[EagerBeaver]

RG,

I just pointed out the fact of what is likely to happen to Li if he is found insane. I make no judgment as to whether that is the preferable way he should be treated or not - it's how he will be treated. He won't be in the criminal justice system. I also don't know much about the commitment procedure in Canada and whether there are irrevocable commitments. But here we have a whole thread predicated upon the notion that Li will end up being tried and convicted of the crime and then sentenced criminally, and I just wanted to remind everyone that none of that will happen if he is "not criminally responsible" or as we say in the USA criminally insane or not guilty by reason of insanity. In any event whether he is insane or not, the death penalty does not exist in Canada so it is all a moot argument. The issue of Canada's softness on crime is also completely irrelevant in a thread in which we are talking about a man with NO criminal record, NO known commitment record who engaged in conduct nobody in their right mind could have reasonably anticipated.

Regarding the mental health profession, there is indeed a tendency for people in the mental health profession to believe that you can treat away and medicate away mental health problems, primarily because all treatment is goal oriented with the goal of improving or curing the patient if not rehabilitation of the patient. If treatment goals are not met, the psychiatrists are not doing their jobs. However, it is far from an exact science. You have on one side the Tom Cruise view that psychiatry is totally unnecessary to treat any problem and complete pseudoscience, and on the other side you have the view that antidepressant medications like zoloft should be prescribed like candy to make problems go away, as they will make problems go away. I believe the truth is somewhere in between, but you have to realize that due to the private medical insurance industry in the USA and their demand that there be diagnoses to justify the treatment being rendered, you have had the psychiatry profession invent a lot of fictional disorders and pseudo-scientific treatment regimens in order to justify the costs of what they are doing. This is well known and has been discussed in many books especially in regards to learning disabilities. That being said, there are many legitimately mentally ill people who do benefit from treatment and some who do not, like this guy you mentioned. There are others who are just abusers looking for meds.

 

[JustBob]

People who call our prisons "Club Fed" are not going to like this.

Bastoey prison island in Norway. I remember seeing a documentary on it. Note that Norway has one of the lowest incarceration rate in the world.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6983186.stm

 

[Ben Dover]

Sometimes accidents happen when someone is awaiting trial. Sometimes people get killed in jail and nobody ever finds out who did it. Sometimes a guy like Li could slip on a piece of soap in the shower and crack his head open or trip at the top of a long flight of stairs.

That would be shame... but I guess canadian taxpayers could get over it

I hope they are greasing his stairs and soaping his shower as we speak.

BD

 

[Regular Guy]

What me? - Tongue in Cheek? Naw

People who call our prisons "Club Fed" are not going to like this.

Bastoey prison island in Norway. I remember seeing a documentary on it. Note that Norway has one of the lowest incarceration rate in the world.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6983186.stm

Well I have to admit you finally have me stumped. I had no idea there was this kind of amazing program available for all the governments of the world to employ. Now I am going to assume a couple of things here. First that those administrators of the system have embellished nothing when talking to the reporter. Second that there are no other factors which might be responsible for the low recidivism rate and that statements made in this regard are accurate (no stats were given). Third that if this worked here it is applicable to our society as well. If we could find an island near Kingston it might be worth transferring the penitentiary there and going with this.

I read the article and would like to review some of the more amazing features of this system which I feel should be implemented in both our prison system and that of the US. Sounds wonderful. I will quote from the article:

According to Ms Smith, no more than four guards watch over some 115 prisoners during the evenings. They do not carry guns.
.Prisoners who break the jail's rules risk being transferred to a more secure facility - a potent deterrent, Ms Smith says.
Those who flee the facility before their time is up have one obligation - to phone the jail.

(Come on you merbites stop that sniggering! This is serious stuff! I am very disappointed in you!) I'll continue.....

"We tell all the prisoners that if they escape, they must telephone to let us know they've made it safely to the mainland," Ms Smith says.
The phone call spares the prison from having to organise an expensive search-and-rescue mission in the fjord.

( Now that's enough! The sniggering was bad but bursting right out laughing is not acceptable!) I'll go on.....

- "I was on duty one night when we noticed a boat had gone missing," she says. "We called the police, who rang back an hour later to say the boat had been found."
"They found the prisoner too - by following his footprints in the snow."
Some prisoners at Bastoey have been unwilling to leave at the end of their sentences, Ms Smith says. "Their sentences might have been reduced for good behaviour - but they will then apply to serve their full sentence, so they can stay at Bastoey."

Okay that's it! I refuse to continue. Sorry JB but these guys are not being respectful.

Sorry JB I just couldn't resist! The Devil made me do it

 

[alice_wonderland]

A man in Greece has beheaded his girlfriend's dog and his girlfriend, proudly displaying her head to neighbors and then flinging it at police as they tried to arrest him:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/03/greece.crime.ap/index.html

This is very horrible EagerBeaver if someone copy crime. I read CNN story and feel ill like when I read story of M. Li. I also, like Korbel click on link and see (well almost see) behead of person. I try to turn off video but even if I don't look I hear. It was journalism man, Daniel Pearl. I hear him die like that and is most horrible thing in the world. I remember that sound forever. But I think those people who kill him not insane, just have agenda. I think man who behead and eat after is for sure insane. I feel very sad now because it add to list of 'how things are fucked up in world'. Many many things on that list.

Alice

 

[Mike Mercury]

That douche bag Jan Wong hasn't able to blame the last ten or twenty psychotic killings on Québec.

 

[Regular Guy]

RG,

I just pointed out the fact of what is likely to happen to Li if he is found insane. I make no judgment as to whether that is the preferable way he should be treated or not - it's how he will be treated. He won't be in the criminal justice system. I also don't know much about the commitment procedure in Canada and whether there are irrevocable commitments. But here we have a whole thread predicated upon the notion that Li will end up being tried and convicted of the crime and then sentenced criminally, and I just wanted to remind everyone that none of that will happen if he is "not criminally responsible" or as we say in the USA criminally insane or not guilty by reason of insanity. In any event whether he is insane or not, the death penalty does not exist in Canada so it is all a moot argument. The issue of Canada's softness on crime is also completely irrelevant in a thread in which we are talking about a man with NO criminal record, NO known commitment record who engaged in conduct nobody in their right mind could have reasonably anticipated

.
First off I wasn't challenging you on any aspect of your take on it. You are probably right in that he will be found insane. We tend to be so horrified at such acts that we can't imagine them being committed by anyone who is not insane. No there is no irrevocable commitment in Canada. Should he ever be declared “cured” or fit to join society it is very conceivable that Mr. Li will be among us once more.
Yes I suppose Canada's softness on crime is irrelevant here. However this tendency to stick our collective heads in the sand when it comes to calling a spade a spade seems to apply a great number of areas of our society when it comes to discussing responsibility for our actions in society today. But that is another debate altogether.

 

[JustBob]

Okay that's it! I refuse to continue. Sorry JB but these guys are not being respectful.

I'm quite sure you're smart enough to use Google, read up more articles, look up the documentary if you can, and make up your own mind about what's real and what's exaggerated.

Of course, I did not post this to suggest that we should immediately embrace that system, just to show that there's more than one way to handle a inmates, from one extreme to another. I see that Norway "prison" as an interesting experiment in rehabilitation, nothing more.

Plus, if you examine some of the quotes you posted carefully, a number of them actually make sense.

For example, let's take the "deterrent" part. Inmates behave because they don't want to be sent to a harsher prison. That's nothing new. Several so-called "supermax" prisons in the US function on that principle: i.e. the facility has fewer prisoners, fewer guards, inmates have more freedom and can choose to be in their cell (pretty much) whenever they choose to, and the cell doors are not locked. These facilities are less costly to administrate, and encounter fewer problems with the inmates.

Also, inmates not wanting to leave after their sentence is over is nothing new either. This again, occurs in "normal" prisons. For someone who has been in prison for 20 or 25 years, the prison is often their life. They have been out of society for so long, that getting out scares them shitless.

 

[Regular Guy]

For example, let's take the "deterrent" part. Inmates behave because they don't want to be sent to a harsher prison. That's nothing new. Several so-called "supermax" prisons in the US function on that principle: i.e. the facility has fewer prisoners, fewer guards, inmates have more freedom and can choose to be in their cell (pretty much) whenever they choose to, and the cell doors are not locked. These facilities are less costly to administrate, and encounter fewer problems with the inmates.

Also, inmates not wanting to leave after their sentence is over is nothing new either. This again, occurs in "normal" prisons. For someone who has been in prison for 20 or 25 years, the prison is often their life. They have been out of society for so long, that getting out scares them shitless.

Sorry Bob, You will have to be a litle more specific in terms of stats and causality for both the supermax initiative and the guys who don't want to leave prison. Now I have heard of the odd inmate who reoffends immediately upon release because he/she fears having to function on the outside. But with greater initiatives in prerelease support I am sure this will become less and less of an issue. Secondly, I would bet that the supermax initiative exists on the principle that if it works in as many cases as we can get it to, then great. We are saving money. I am sure it has its proponents as well as its detractors. In any event I see these issues as anomalies.
Hardened criminals may just say F U to the supermax and sociopaths might say, Sure, I am so sorry for the rapes and murders, I will be good if you send me there.

 

[korbel]

This is very horrible EagerBeaver if someone copy crime. I read CNN story and feel ill like when I read story of M. Li. I also, like Korbel click on link and see (well almost see) behead of person. I try to turn off video but even if I don't look I hear. It was journalism man, Daniel Pearl. I hear him die like that and is most horrible thing in the world. I remember that sound forever. But I think those people who kill him not insane, just have agenda. I think man who behead and eat after is for sure insane. I feel very sad now because it add to list of 'how things are fucked up in world'. Many many things on that list.

Alice

Hello Alice,

If they aren't insane they do have the most savage and evil of hearts and souls. Maybe that is insanity too.

Cheers,

Korbel

 

[korbel]

Hello all,

The key question here is what is fair justice for murder under any circumstances. Even if someone could be perfectly "rehabilitated" to a 100% guarantee, when does releasing him fulfill justice? Should a killer without real cause ever be released. Each case has to stand on it's circumstances but this case as given has no issue of self-defense or any other form of just cause. Not being a lawyer, my understanding is that justifiable killing of another person that would not result in punishment has to be done under an immediate threat to one's own life. But their is a broad degree of mitigating circumstances that require varying degrees of punishment. Still, a life is lost. What is truly justice for that under any circumstances?

Hmm,

Korbel

 

[JustBob]

Sorry Bob, You will have to be a litle more specific in terms of stats and causality for both the supermax initiative and the guys who don't want to leave prison. Now I have heard of the odd inmate who reoffends immediately upon release because he/she fears having to function on the outside. But with greater initiatives in prerelease support I am sure this will become less and less of an issue. Secondly, I would bet that the supermax initiative exists on the principle that if it works in as many cases as we can get it to, then great. We are saving money. I am sure it has its proponents as well as its detractors. In any event I see these issues as anomalies.

Anomalies? That's a pretty bizarre choice of word, especially in the second case. Do not forget that prisons in the US are big business and are often ran as such.

Hardened criminals may just say F U to the supermax and sociopaths might say, Sure, I am so sorry for the rapes and murders, I will be good if you send me there.

That's just silly. You don't think there's an extensive screening process as to whom gets sent where? Again, the deterrent principle I outlined above is nothing new.

As to "stats", I'll just repeat this again. You're a big boy and I'm sure you are quite capable of doing your own research instead of just "asking for more proof"...

 

[Regular Guy]

As to "stats", I'll just repeat this again. You're a big boy and I'm sure you are quite capable of doing your own research instead of just "asking for more proof"...

C'mon Bob. It's your job to support your own arguments. I am not your "bum boy" here

That's just silly. You don't think there's an extensive screening process as to whom gets sent where? Again, the deterrent principle I outlined above is nothing new.

That is assuming whether an inmate gives f**k whether he is screened or not in the first place.

 

[Regular Guy]

Hello all,

The key question here is what is fair justice for murder under any circumstances. Even if someone could be perfectly "rehabilitated" to a 100% guarantee, when does releasing him fulfill justice? Should a killer without real cause ever be released. Each case has to stand on it's circumstances but this case as given has no issue of self-defense or any other form of just cause. Not being a lawyer, my understanding is that justifiable killing of another person that would not result in punishment has to be done under an immediate threat to one's own life. But their is a broad degree of mitigating circumstances that require varying degrees of punishment. Still, a life is lost. What is truly justice for that under any circumstances?

Hmm,

Korbel

And that is the key Korbel. What purpose should justice serve? And more importantly what purpose should it serve in the case of premeditated murder. The fallout on society of going either route is what we need to determine. If we do away with the concept that taking a life means forfeiture of one's own then what are the consequences first, in practical terms and secondly in terms of ethics and morality. Might be an idea to succinctly state both sides of the argument. Those against the death penalty have a lot to answer for as well as those for it. As far as I am concerned in this debate there is no free ride. I say to all Please and I repeat please spare me all of the fallacies of argument when presenting your case whatever that may be. And from your comment Korbel it looks like we have failed. Not much to show for well over 200 posts eh?

 

[Techman]

People who call our prisons "Club Fed" are not going to like this.

Bastoey prison island in Norway. I remember seeing a documentary on it. Note that Norway has one of the lowest incarceration rate in the world.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6983186.stm

I would be 100 percent in favour of an institution such as this being set up in Canada. With the provision that extremely violent offenders such as murderers and sex offenders, especially pedophiles, not be eligible. Otherwise I believe it is a great way to ensure that those prisoners who will be released into society after their sentence will be able to re-integrate smoothly. It would give them a sense of self worth and accomplishment that many of them may have been lacking before they committed their crimes.

Techman