The Death Penalty to 40 years old Vince Li !! See him I have the link !!

[Mod 8]

mod should show who's the man here

I have been following this thread and I actually find it heartening to see everyone discussing this without lowering themselves down to insults and flames.

Obviously this is a subject where people have very strong opinions and as long as it continues in the same manner it has, I see no reason to interfere.

M8

 

[MarathonMan]

Sure Irak is more violant than the USA...but it's because of them!
Sorry i got to be ironic!

Violence is not a solution.
Using death penalty won't stop people to kill each other, won't cure psychos.

Following your thinking we should cut thiefs hands too?

Come on what statistic says the US is the most violent on earth. Is it because of the death penalty? We don't use it enough...maybe thats the problem.

The death penalty should be perscribed for the most heinous cases.

 

[korbel]

Well, the death penalty is a very controversial issue, and bound to evoke never-ending debate from both sides of the issue.

For me personally, I am opposed to the death penalty for these reasons:

a) Nothing will bring the victims back.

b) It would not serve as a deterrent, unless we were to live in a police state. For example, the Soviet Union, where people were genuinely concerned about the KGB monitoring their every move, in private and in public.

As it stands, by the time the sentence is actually carried out, the crime had already occurred decades ago, and is not fresh in the memory of the public.

c) It is not cheap. A death row inmate will still cost the state money for his room and board. And his constant stream of appeals tie up the courts, and run up legal bills, which usually, the state must also pay for.

d) Risk of mistakenly executing an innocent man.

e) For the government and vengeful families to purposely take away someone's life in an act of vengeance, disguised as punishment, drags society down to the level of the despised monster.

In other words, it makes us as bad as him.

Hello BJB,

Absolutely correct! Over thousands of years criminals have faced crucifixion, impalement, hanging-drawing-quartering, beheading, boiling, being burned alive, being caged and exposed to the elements until death, electrocution, stoning, being thrown to beasts, lethal injection, gassing, being ripped apart by horses, entombment, ant hills, strangulation, shooting, even being subjected watching to endless hours of Gilligan's Island...lol...and still the same crimes go on. Now as I said, I am not in support of the death penalty. It does stop the killer from killing again, but it has never been an effective deterrent. Still, stick this animal where he will never see light again.

Cheers,

Korbel

 

[hungry101]

Well, the death penalty is a very controversial issue, and bound to evoke never-ending debate from both sides of the issue.

For me personally, I am opposed to the death penalty for these reasons:

a) Nothing will bring the victims back.

Yes but it will ensure that the criminal will not murder again

b) It would not serve as a deterrent, unless we were to live in a police state. For example, the Soviet Union, where people were genuinely concerned about the KGB monitoring their every move, in private and in public.

Sure would serve as a deterent for me. Probably would serve more as a deterent if the death penalty were used more. Besides, it give me personal satisfaction.

As it stands, by the time the sentence is actually carried out, the crime had already occurred decades ago, and is not fresh in the memory of the public.

Good point. Need to do it more quickly.

c) It is not cheap. A death row inmate will still cost the state money for his room and board. And his constant stream of appeals tie up the courts, and run up legal bills, which usually, the state must also pay for.

I am willing to pay higher taxes if they use the money to fry people like this guy that cuts someones head off. I would rather see my tax dollars spent like this then see it go into liberal programs like free counseling for ladies that make a bunt cake for the church bazar and the bunt cake didn't go over very well.

d) Risk of mistakenly executing an innocent man.

Another good point. There are always risks and I do fear that there are politically motivated prosectors that will do whatever is expedient. Look at the prosecuting attorney in the Duke Lacrosse case. Still, I feel this is a risk that society should be willing to take.

e) For the government and vengeful families to purposely take away someone's life in an act of vengeance, disguised as punishment, drags society down to the level of the despised monster.

In other words, it makes us as bad as him.

Ah bull. Its a sin not to put these heinous criminals to sleep.

 

[hungry101]

Sure Irak is more violant than the USA...but it's because of them!
Sorry i got to be ironic!

Violence is not a solution.
Using death penalty won't stop people to kill each other, won't cure psychos.

Following your thinking we should cut thiefs hands too?

Why does it always turn into US bashing and no one seems to stick up for the US? Would you have rather lived in the post war Iraq or the US? The Us has been guaranteeing your liberty for about the past 100 years. It has been a beacon of freedom and democracy for rest of the world. Your economy is closely tied to the US.

 

[Techman]

For a criminal, no matter of what type, there is no such thing as a deterrent. It doesn't matter if it is a thief, rapist, child molestor...right up to a murderer. Prison time, the death penalty, whatever you want. There are no deterrents. Why do you think so many people re-offend after being released? Do you think they actually believe they will be caught when they commit the crime?

But there at least has to be a way to keep the worst of humanity from harming anyone ever again. And I have no faith in rehab as long as it remains less than 100 percent effective. Until this day, we should prevent these criminals from ever having the chance to kill again. Either we lock them up until the day they die or we execute them. If even 1 percent of those who are 'rehabilitated' kill again, it is 1 percent too many. I favour the death penalty because it ensures that no slimy lawyer or bleeding heart will never find some reason to have any one of them released before they die in prison.

And I include those so called 'young offenders' in this. I don't care if some psycho killer is only 14 or 16. Publish their names and their photos and lock them up until they are dead.

I do not look at this as revenge. I look at it as prevention and protection for society as a whole.

 

[MarathonMan]

watch this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMmBE8dLVJA

Well, the death penalty is a very controversial issue, and bound to evoke never-ending debate from both sides of the issue.

For me personally, I am opposed to the death penalty for these reasons:


Yes but it will ensure that the criminal will not murder again

Sure would serve as a deterent for me. Probably would serve more as a deterent if the death penalty were used more. Besides, it give me personal satisfaction.

Good point. Need to do it more quickly.


I am willing to pay higher taxes if they use the money to fry people like this guy that cuts someones head off. I would rather see my tax dollars spent like this then see it go into liberal programs like free counseling for ladies that make a bunt cake for the church bazar and the bunt cake didn't go over very well.

Another good point. There are always risks and I do fear that there are politically motivated prosectors that will do whatever is expedient. Look at the prosecuting attorney in the Duke Lacrosse case. Still, I feel this is a risk that society should be willing to take.
Ah bull. Its a sin not to put these heinous criminals to sleep.

 

[Techman]

And because an actor is presenting such a nice well rehearsed and prepared speech it is supposed to make me feel bad about executing an animal like Li? Ummmmm, let me think a minute................





No.

 

[hungry101]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMmBE8dLVJA





Thanks Marathon Man. Many good points in the video. Sorry, I am still in favor of capital punishment for the most heinous of cases.

BTW - I have posted enough on this thread. You know how I feel.

 

[THEHITMAN]

I've seen alot of people in foreign countries be punished for a crime they never commited or they were setup.Imagine if someone was setup and got the death penalty for a crime they never committed.I'm not saying that this guy is innocent everyone saw him do it but what would happen if it was someone else that was punished innocently.Theres a boxer in the states that spent quite sometime in prison for a crime that he never committed.I dont think the death penalty is the solution for this.We are all humans and have the right to live.Yes we should be punished for our crimes but not by death.Just my 2 cents.

 

[korbel]

I've seen alot of people in foreign countries be punished for a crime they never commited or they were setup.Imagine if someone was setup and got the death penalty for a crime they never committed.I'm not saying that this guy is innocent everyone saw him do it but what would happen if it was someone else that was punished innocently.Theres a boxer in the states that spent quite sometime in prison for a crime that he never committed.I dont think the death penalty is the solution for this.We are all humans and have the right to live.Yes we should be punished for our crimes but not by death.Just my 2 cents.

Hello all,

I guess it's perfectly natural that this thread should turn into another discussion on the morality and effectiveness of the death penalty world wide and through history. But for those of you who are contesting the fairness of the accusations against the "alleged" killer based on the known facts as reported, could you please show me anywhere where there is any dispute as to whether or not Li cut the head off of a previously sleeping man who was no threat to anyone. Is projecting your memories of other cases really going to change the fact that this guy committed the act of a barbarian? Well, I guess we are all free to expand where we wish if the spirit moves you. But it would be nice if some didn't act like Li isn't getting a fair deal or that he isn't perfectly guilty if the reports are accurate. And if their is injustice for him, please show where it is instead of going into unrelated cases that have nothing to do with this one to gain sympathy. That's just baloney.

Bonne nuit,

Korbel

 

[Regular Guy]

The Real Debate

For me personally, I am opposed to the death penalty for these reasons:
a) Nothing will bring the victims back.

This is true. But it would be the height of folly to suggest that this point has any place in the argument. The most anyone could get out of this statement is that the victim is very dead. Well DUH! Of course the victim is dead. And unless you are Jesus Christ you aren't going to be bringing anyone back. The trick here is to deal with how we view the sanctity of human life and how we express that value.

b) It would not serve as a deterrent, unless we were to live in a police state. For example, the Soviet Union, where people were genuinely concerned about the KGB monitoring their every move, in private and in public.

For the life of me I don't see why deterrence has to be limited to whether we live in a police state. What is your point here? That if you are a proponent of the death penalty you are some kind of fascist? To equate our expression of the high value we put on human life with the loss of hard won freedoms in our society is a fallacy of argument. Your comparison is completely arbitrary.

As it stands, by the time the sentence is actually carried out, the crime had already occurred decades ago, and is not fresh in the memory of the public.

Well that's great. Let's carry this thought to its logical conclusion. For those who have always wondered just how to get away with it, you have just come up with the answer – the passing of time. Hey give it enough time and it will all blow over. Now let's see. I'm in Aunt Zelda's will for a cool 10 million. That ought to cover my defense until this all blows over. Time to ice the old doll.

c) It is not cheap. A death row inmate will still cost the state money for his room and board. And his constant stream of appeals tie up the courts, and run up legal bills, which usually, the state must also pay for.

So is incarceration for life so following this train of thought then why prosecute murderers at all. Much cheaper to wag the finger and slap his wrist. Naughty boy. Now don't do that again or we will be very upset – very upset!

d) Risk of mistakenly executing an innocent man.

As I said before this argument cuts both ways. In the present climate which exists within our corrections system sadistic sociopaths have convinced parole boards of the fact of their rehabilitation and been released back into the general population to attack others. Jeffery Arenburg is a prime example. However as I said before judges have some latitude in sentencing. In cases where there is no direct evidence or no witnesses, for example in the Truscott case then I would be amenable to incarceration for life with no chance of parole. That would give plenty of time for the “Wrongfully Convicted” crew to work on the case on behalf of the party in question. This however would not apply to Mr. Li.

e) For the government and vengeful families to purposely take away someone's life in an act of vengeance, disguised as punishment, drags society down to the level of the despised monster.
In other words, it makes us as bad as him.

That is not the purpose of our laws. Our legal system is so much more than this example of shallow thinking. Our laws serve several very noble functions. They allow us to live in harmony with each other. They protect us from ourselves. They define us, what we believe in, what we value, what we are willing to die for to protect and most importantly are an expression of just how seriously we intend to protect what we believe in. This last point is really what the debate is about. It's not about petty revenge at all. It is about creating a climate that will instill in all of us the morality of our regard for the sanctity of human life and the right to life. Taking the life of another may entail losing that right for yourself if it comes to that. If you are looking to a future of greater peace among us and the diminution of crime then socializing our populace to these values within this context is the way. The arguments you have presented merely mitigates our regard for the right to life of all our citizens and cheapens human life. We deserve so much more.

 

[EagerBeaver]

Victim's Body Defiled

The victim was beheaded, gutted, chopped up and then eaten:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/08/02/canada.bus.stabbing.ap/index.html

 

[Doc Holliday]

Several passengers mentionned that the accused killer, Li, appeared to be robotic during the ordeal. But people who knew him were shocked to learn that he was the suspect:

Li's employer said in an interview Saturday that he was shocked to learn that his "model employee" had been accused of the grisly attack. Vincent Augert, an independent contractor who distributes newspapers in Edmonton, said that Li was one of his most reliable carriers.

"He was very punctual and always cleanly dressed," Augert said. "He was a very nice, polite guy."

Augert said that Li called him two weeks ago saying that he needed a day or two off to go to Winnipeg for a job interview at the end of July. He said he called him back and left him a message asking him for the dates he needed off but never heard back from him.

"That was unusual for him not to call back and then when he didn't show up for work on Tuesday we got worried," said Augert.

Augert said he called Li's cellphone on Thursday and his wife answered. She told him that she had not heard from Li either, and that he had said he had to leave for a family emergency a few days ago.

"And then when I found out in the news that Li was being pinned for the brutal attack, I was in utter shock," he said.

Strange. Has anyone ever seen the movie "The Manchurian Candidate"? This story kind of reminds me of that movie & the Raymond Shaw character (played by Lawrence Harvey in the 1962 film & by Liev Schreiber in the 2004 version of the Richard Condon bestseller). How can someone like Vince Li just snap like that? Could it happen to any one of us?

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2008/08/02/6338191-cp.html

 

[bond_james_bond]

Li has refused an attorney.

If he defends himself, this case may be similar to the Colin Ferguson case (the guy who shot 6 on the Long Island Railroad):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_Ferguson

Here were Ferguson's excuses/claims:

a) His 93 charges were because the year was 1993. Had the year been 1925, he would have faced 25 charges.
b) He was driven to temporary insanity by black rage.
c) He had a gun, but another man stole his gun while he slept.
d) A mysterious man named Mr. Su had a conspiracy against him.
e) The government had implanted a computer chip in his brain.
f) He wanted to subpoena President Bill Clinton as a defense witness.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Li has refused an attorney.

He simply hasn't uttered a word since his arrest.

 

[eastender]

Indirect Point

Li has refused an attorney.

If he defends himself, this case may be similar to the Colin Ferguson case (the guy who shot 6 on the Long Island Railroad):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_Ferguson

Here were Ferguson's excuses/claims:

a) His 93 charges were because the year was 1993. Had the year been 1925, he would have faced 25 charges.
b) He was driven to temporary insanity by black rage.
c) He had a gun, but another man stole his gun while he slept.
d) A mysterious man named Mr. Su had a conspiracy against him.
e) The government had implanted a computer chip in his brain.
f) He wanted to subpoena President Bill Clinton as a defense witness.

Indirectly making the point that Canada's Gun Control policies have merit.

 

[Daringly]

Strange. Has anyone ever seen the movie "The Manchurian Candidate"? This story kind of reminds me of that movie & the Raymond Shaw character (played by Lawrence Harvey in the 1962 film & by Liev Schreiber in the 2004 version of the Richard Condon bestseller). How can someone like Vince Li just snap like that? Could it happen to any one of us?

No i don't believe that this could happen to any one of us. A much different situation is you put 10 people behind the eight ball when it comes to their finances one or two of them may resort to stealing the rest stay dead honest. To me it comes down to strength of character, you either have it or you don't. It is easy to stay honest and law abiding in the good times not everybody can do it when times get tough or stressful.

 

[Dee]

There has been discussion about the penalty for murder and the deductions that are allowed from the sentence. Here is my understanding:

Penalty is life imprisonment without chance of parole for 25 years.

Note the penalty is life and after 25 years there is only a CHANCE for parole.

Exception: after 15 years there is a possibility for a hearing which may allow a CHANCE for parole... they call this "the faint hope clause"... this aspect was in the news a lot a while ago for the politician Thatcher who killed his wife... he's the guy that was able to have his horse with him for a while when imprisoned... after a public uproar he had to ship his horse back and he had to go back to the prison golf course.

 

[Techman]

My idea of "the faint hope clause" would be the very slim chance the rope might break as they are being hanged.