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Election 2012: Will History repeat itself? Union National splits vote, PQ wins power.

Sol Tee Nutz

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Look behind you.
With GUGU's comments. I hear the per catipa a lot here in Quebec, that can be turned around to why are you not pulling in more money with all the people you have here? As for the cheap school, daycare etc it is from the provincial money but if it was not for the transfer payments all the special programs Quebec has would not be there.
 

Doc Holliday

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The way i see it, the province of Quebec is like someone who's attached to a life support machine, and the rest of Canada are supplying the electricity to keep it running.
 

EagerBeaver

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Equalization Payments

I noticed that a lot of posters have ducked a discussion of the only objective thing we can quantify in regard to the debate over Quebec sovereignty: the amount of equalization payments. It occurred to me that there is no guessing regarding the net monies coming in or going out.

In fact the wiki on the objective criteria and numbers are there for everyone to see, and do not need to be hidden from by all of you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equalization_payments_in_Canada

The number is right there: Quebec in 2012-13 year will receive equalization payments totalling $7.391 billion. This is by far more than any other Canadian province. Based on these numbers, the province of Quebec is a giant leetch on the back of Canada, and this cannot be denied.

There is no longer any need to pretend a number does not exist. It's right there for the whole world to see. I have supplied the facts previously lacking from this discussion. Now the discussion may proceed in an informed manner.
 
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Doc Holliday

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the province of Quebec is a giant leetch on the back of Canada, and this cannot be denied.

Absolutely. But one of the benefits of Quebec's economy being in the dumps is that it's a boom for the sex business. Not much different from a third-world country where prostitution is rampant.
 

gugu

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With GUGU's comments. I hear the per catipa a lot here in Quebec, that can be turned around to why are you not pulling in more money with all the people you have here?

Are you suggesting we should not use per capita data? Are you suggesting that Alberta citizens should pay the exact same total amount of taxes to Ottawa as Québec do?

Some people think our day care program is a bad thing. The difference with day care for kids in Québec and Alberta is that you pay around 800$/month in Alberta and 150$/month in Québec. No wonder why The NDP wants to generalize the Québec system all over Canada.


EB, I don't hve much time to search but maybe you could look at the following figures:

http://etatscanadiens-canadiangovernments.enap.ca/en/nav.aspx?sortcode=2.0.3.1
 

Sol Tee Nutz

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Look behind you.
If you understand my comment, with the amount of people you have here and with a proper goverrnment that could keep all the people working you should not have to be a have not province.
And with the daycare who the hell is going to pay for it. People in Alberta are not complaining about the $800.00 ( which is high ) cost. NDP is the same as PQ, great programs, give you this and that but in the end who is going to pay for everything. Quebec is already the highest taxed place in North America and they are in debt 117 billion dollars and if you added the 107 billion in transfer payments since 1957.
 

Merlot

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I noticed that a lot of posters have ducked a discussion of the only objective thing we can quantify in regard to the debate over Quebec sovereignty: the amount of equalization payments. It occurred to me that there is no guessing regarding the net monies coming in or going out.

In fact the wiki on the objective criteria and numbers are there for everyone to see, and do not need to be hidden from by all of you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equalization_payments_in_Canada

The number is right there:Quebec in 2012-13 year will receive equalization payments totalling $7.391 billion. This is by far more than any other Canadian province. Based on these numbers, the province of Quebec is a giant leetch on the back of Canada, and this cannot be denied.

There is no longer any need to pretend a number does not exist. It's right there for the whole world to see. I have supplied the facts previously lacking from this discussion. Now the discussion may proceed in an informed manner.

EB,

Some of this statement is almost true, but includes you pretending also, finally referring to it 143 posts into the thread.

Techman has made references to this before, early in this thread and others, noting how dependent Quebec is on the support of the other Canadian provinces. I'm sure the Separatists, including the xenophobic element, are fully aware of the economic situation making them either crazy or courageous in their goals. But though this situation has been cited by Techman, as a local Quebec citizen deeply passionate on the issue, even he has chosen to focus heavily on the cultural points of the issue thus displaying it's high importance overall. Yes, the economics are very relevant, but obviously not paramount given the strong depths of passion on the cultural elements.

I have already written an opinon against Separation, and the economics Techman cited were significant in that opinion.

Your post is still no more than cut and paste like Doc's posts. What's your point of view aside from the posturing? Since this thread is about sovereignty, how should these facts impact on your viewpoint, beyond you acting like some innocent superior to others??? Is there some viewpoint?

For me the strength of the Separatists feelings, despite the strong economic disadvantage sovereignty would cause them on the face of the situation and the risk of being Independent, displays the depth of the dispute...making that contentiousness more relevant than the bare facts of the economics.

Cheers,

Merlot
 

EagerBeaver

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Merlot,

My recollection is that earlier in the thread there was some debate, which coursed through several posts, about whether or not Quebec was net in the red from the feds or net in the black. A recent post indicated that based on some money exchange in 1867, Quebec should be paid back. The point of my post is that all that really matters is based on what can be objectively quantified NOW (present history) - the current "equalization payments". That is why I cited to the wiki article.

Techman has argued passionately about a net deficit but has made many cultural arguments without engaging in a purely economic analysis. I find that while I do not disagree with Techman, his subjective assertions were attacked by Gugu and others who offered equally subjective rebuttal. My point was to try and bring a layer of objective analysis in current $ to the table so that all posters can think long and hard about it. Because if Quebec does not get that $7.3 billion from the Canadian federal government, then it has to come from someplace else. I want to know what the proposal is for someplace else.
 
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jeff jones

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Because if Quebec does not get that $7.3 billion from the Canadian federal government, then it has to come from someplace else. I want to know what the proposal is for someplace else.

If quebec separates they will make mtl escorts and agency owners pay there fair share of taxes and it will more then make up for the 7.3 billion difference:)
 

Doc Holliday

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If quebec separates they will make mtl escorts and agency owners pay there fair share of taxes and it will more then make up for the 7.3 billion difference:)

Are you implying that escorts & 'agency owners' don't pay their fair share of taxes? Are you putting them in the same boat as Mitt Romney? :rolleyes:
 

Merlot

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My point was to try and bring a layer of objective analysis in current $ to the table so that all posters can think long and hard about it. Because if Quebec does not get that $7.3 billion from the Canadian federal government, then it has to come from someplace else. I want to know what the proposal is for someplace else.

Hello EB,

That's good. There can't be any discussion on this Separatist issue with strong consideration of the critical economic element. My point was that injecting viewpoints on that element by those like you and others who suggest it has greater importance than the cultural factors, rather than posting just economic data, would help spur discussion in the direction of economics. That might be important considering the passion behind the cultural aspects given how much emphasis it has gotten. It was probably the economic factors that has defeated these Separatists previously.

...mtl escorts and agency owners pay there fair share of taxes... - Jeff Jones

If their profits could make up any significant part of the $7.3 billion then there's a new agency coming called...Les Belles Femmes de Merlot. :D :thumb:

But one has to wonder if separation would motivate legalization successfully for tax reasons. Money talks...especially the greater the need.

Cheers,

Merlot
 

james t kirk

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I do not calculate the well being of a nation according to its demographics or on "mine is bigger then yours" arguments. Both cities have qualities and bad sides. I don't want to get into methodology debates about interprovincial mobility, a quite complicated subject.

I will agree with you that there was a substantial movement of anglophones, and francophones as a matter of fact, to Toronto in the late sixties and through the seventies. It is a very complex issue involving economics, culture and the rise of a francophone elite in Québec. That migrations started way before the election of the PQ, in the late sixties. May I remind you that the first important language law in Québec was adopted by the liberal party. It was pretty broad: justice, public administration, business and, of course, education. The opposition of the english community to the law 22 was as harsh as it was for law 101. I agree that the election of the PQ in 1976 accelerated the movement. But IMHO, it was to happen anyway even under law 22. Politically, all parties in Québec support law 101 today. Some people decided to move somewhere else? So be it. Societies do not have to governed economic elites. But please do not suggest that voting for the liberals is better than voting for the PQ on that matter. Just like the PQ, the liberals are governed by the french political elite. Their policies on the language issues are not much different.

My point was and is that Toronto is a welcoming city. We don't care what language you speak, all we care about is that you have some talent to bring to the party and you pay your taxes. We certainly do not get all wound up about language laws and repressive laws in the name of "protecting" our culture. Please. We welcome immigrants from all over the world. You can put a sign up in Chinese, or Greek, or French or Italian. We don't care. Ontario is open for business.

As to the liberals not changing the language laws, you are quite correct. They are afraid to because it would cause a shit storm in Quebec with those who fear change.

To my line of thinking, the liberals are not the party seeking Quebec Indpendence and I don't want Quebec to separate. I'm like the lover in the relationship that doesn't want his partner to go.
 

james t kirk

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Threat of separation, capital fleeing, Bill 101. Yadda yadda yadda

Québec has many choices. As Gugu correctly pointed out, the Liberals had already passed a pretty wide-sweeping French Language Law before the PQ formed the government in 1976 and passed 101. Through this time, no government has wanted to tamper much with 101 simply because public opinion is for it.

A lot of people frown upon this and I partly understand. Lets' look at it from an environmentalists' standpoint: the only significant territory in North America left with a "viable" French-speaking majority is Québec. Everywhere else is just "pockets", no matter which way you cut the cake. English rules in all the rest of Canada, fact. Because of sheer demographics, an even more so now with Web 2.0 and a globalization that is mostly taking place in English, it is time to take a good look at this.

A full-blown economy driven language approach would eventually revert to the old "English or bilingual" standard being in effect in business. We have already seen ominous shades of this last fall.

The PQ is going too far and doesn't have majority support to strengthen 101. That won't happen.

Québec made a choice way back in the 1970's and has supported it ever since: French is the language of the majority here, and would soon stop to be if education, work and service to the public regulations were not written accordingly. One could say the choice stemmed out of wanting "to protect an endangered species" (a French speaking community in North America).

Did this choice hurt QC economically? It is possible. Was the French language saved in the process? I believe yes. Is Bill 101 or its' enforcement perfect? No. I am particularly irked by the "smaller other languages" commercial sign and the welcome signs when I come in from Ontario that greet me in big French, then smaller English, Spanish and Portuguese. That is way, way over the top in my book.

One thing is clear, harping about it won't change a thing because all major parties won't tinker with it much, as should be.

François Legault said some time ago that Ottawa was not lending much of an ear to QC because its' "balance sheet" was in the red. He proposed the wild notion to start contributing to the federation and then see what happens. Let me tell you that the PQ had a field day with that one...

I happen to agree with a lot of what Legault has to say. No one is perfect, so pick one. The mildewed PQ with these leveraged threat tactics which I have always despised, and just as indebted to third parties as the others. The cynical Liberals who are filling their pockets blind while staging the election during pivotal events to what they hope is their "advantage by default". They figure there is no way for them to capitalize on the student crisis other than call an election, and now. Whatever would have come next would have probably been unfavourable to their already shaky standing. Charest is also doing it now before Legault had time to slowly build up the CAQ.

So I am tossing my hat in the ring with Legault and the CAQ.

Respectfully....

Do you ever wonder what would happen to the French Language if Quebec did separate?

My personal opinion is that it woud suffer. The Americans don't speak French. The rest of Canada is officially bilingual, but that would change very quickly and very dramatically as the rest of Canada reacts. Quebec would be even more isolated.

As far as Bill 101 saving the French language goes, I had a discussion once with a dusty old separatist that I used to work with who was a good guy. I asked him one time, "Denis, how do you think that Quebec managed to perserve its French language and culture?"

He said to me, "as much as it pains me to say (he was quite bilingual having spent a lot of time in Calgary), it was the British who allowed the Catholic Church to carry on running Quebec and the church wanted us isolated from the Protestants. (He was quite the anti-cleric let me tell you).

Go Figure
 

gugu

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I'm like the lover in the relationship that doesn't want his partner to go.

Same for me. I'm federalist btw. And like many federalists in Québec, very certainly a majority of francophone federalists, I am in favor of law 101.

You have no idea about the Liberal party if you think they oppose law 101 because they fear uprisings. Some members do indeed oppose law 101, but a huge majority of their members and MP strongly favor law 101.
 

james t kirk

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I

In Switzerland people speak primarily German, French and Italian, many citizens speak all 3, and none of those three cultures is attempted to be shoved down anyone's throat. I just don't understand why the Swiss model cannot work elsewhere. I don't get it. It especially does not compute that Quebec cannot function as a bilingual society in our increasingly mobile society where people and businesses move around and do not have the time or the money to uproot their linguistic traditions. This seems to me to be a huge problem or obstacle in attracting business enterprises to Quebec.

I agree.

Here in Ontario, most of my friends with kids send their kids to French immersion (which is basically French School from kindergarten on up to Grade 12) The government can't come up with enough spots to serve the demand.

I think this is great news.

I have a young woman working for me right now who is in University who went to French immersion (as have been a couple other of our students as well come to think of it) and she speaks French very well and English perfectly. She is the perfect example of how it should be.

The thing with Quebec is that outside of Montreal, it's a backwater. Montreal is a cosmopolitan oasis in a sea of ethnic distrust and even bigotry. The rest of the province simply would never go for anything like what you saw in Switzerland. They cannot fathom it.
 

james t kirk

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.

6. Toronto is Houston, Montreal is San Francisco. I'll stay right where I am, thank you.

Toronto is NOT Houston. Not even close.

Toronto is THEE most multicultural city in the world. Until you've live here, you cannot appreciate that. Next time you are here, take a walk around Costco in the west end, or St. Lawrence Market on a Saturday morning. Bring your universal translator though. You're going to need it.




Toronto, with a population of 2.48 million people (5.5 million in the GTA - Greater Toronto Area) is heralded as one of the most multicultural cities in the world and is ranked as the safest large metropolitan area in North America by Places Rated Almanac. Over 140 languages and dialects are spoken here, and just over 30 per cent of Toronto residents speak a language other than English or French at home.

In 2006, the City of Toronto was home to 8 per cent of Canada's population, 30 per cent of all recent immigrants and 20 per cent of all immigrants.


Between 2001 and 2006, Canada received 1,109,980 international immigrants. The City of Toronto welcomed about one quarter of all immigrants (267,855) to Canada during this period of about 55,000 annually.


Half of Toronto's population (1,237,720) was born outside of Canada, up from 48 per cent in 1996.


In 2006, half of all immigrants to the City of Toronto have lived in Canada for less than 15 years.


In 2006, more than half of all immigrants living in the City were age 25 and over; 7 per cent were pre-school age 5 and under; 16 per cent were school age 6 to 14; and 22 per cent were youth 15 to 24.


In 2006 the City of Toronto had 45 per cent of the GTA's population in 2006, and was home to:


52.4 per cent of all GTA immigrants;
36 per cent of all immigrants living in Ontario;
20 per cent of all immigrants living in Canada;
42.4 per cent of all visible minorities in Ontario;
22.9 per cent of all visible minorities in Canada.


47 per cent of Toronto's population (1,162,635 people) reported themselves as being part of a visible minority, up from 42.8 per cent (1,051,125) in 2001.


The City of Toronto's visible minority population increased by 10.6 per cent since 2001, and by 31.8 per cent since 1996.


The top five visible minority groups in Toronto were:


South Asian at 298,372 or 12.0 per cent of our population;
Chinese at 283,075 or 11.4 per cent;
Black at 208,555 or 8.4 per cent;
Filipino at 102,555 or 4.1 per cent;
Latin American at 64,860 or 2.6 per cent.


Source:

http://www.toronto.ca/toronto_facts/diversity.htm
 

james t kirk

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There are 2 issues that Separatists in Quebec never seem to have an answer for:

1. What Currency would an independent Quebec use?

2. What about partition?

WRT currency - If Quebec wanted to use the Canadian dollar, (I'm not sure how that would happen, but let's dream and say yes) an indpendent Quebec would have virtually no say with respect to Canadian monitary policy. At the current time, Quebec is over-represented in parliament and with the Bank of Canada. Quebec is always considered when setting economic policies. All this would end (of course) with an independent Quebec. So it begs the question, "why bother using the Canadian dollar since policy would be set whether Quebec likes it or not". So Quebec Francs? They would be worthless as Quebec would have debt worse than Greece and a GDP less than Nigeria's. I don't see this as a good thing. A guy living in Trois Rivieres who has a house worth $400,000 Canadian dollars now has a house worth $400,000 Quebec Francs and a Quebec Franc is worth about 2 cents. What about his savings? Complete and utter economic meltdown.

WRT partition. If Canada is divisible, is not Quebec divisible? The Aboriginal peoples of the north want nothing to do with Quebec now. They would want even less if Quebec were to vote to separate. If the population of Rupert's land votes to remain in Canada, they should receive the same recognition as Quebecers. After all, fair is fair. Ditto the Island of Montreal and the western edges of the province along the Ottawa River. What if those people would rather remain part of Canada.

Montreal is a rocking city. If the country of Quebec were to lose Rupert's Land and Montreal, what then?
 

EagerBeaver

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james t. kirk,

I previously asked a question about the Inuits in Nunavik and whether anyone will demand that they speak French. Nobody has seen fit to discuss that issue until you did. I believe the Inuits made a secession threat at the time of the last referendum in 1995.

One can envision that if Quebec seceded from Canada, both Nunavik and Montreal would secede from Quebec. Nunavik and Montreal could become their own nation or city states. In the case of Montreal it would be sort of like Hong Kong is to China, a semi-autonomous sovereign city-state except in matters of foreign relations and military defense. Montreal could be an officially bilingual city-state while Quebec could be officially French and Nunavik would be Inuit.

I am not sure what currency would be used but one could envision a Quebec dollar used by all 3 autonomous states. There could even be a 4th nation develop in the Laurentians, that being the nation of Rael and the Raelians.
 
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james t kirk

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james t. kirk,

I previously asked a question about the Inuits in Nunavik and whether anyone will demand that they speak French. Nobody has seen fit to discuss that issue until you did. I believe the Inuits made a secession threat at the time of the last referendum in 1995.

One can envision that if Quebec seceded from Canada, both Nunavik and Montreal would secede from Quebec. Nunavik and Montreal could become their own nation or city states. In the case of Montreal it would be sort of like Hong Kong is to China, a semi-autonomous sovereign city-state except in matters of foreign relations and military defense. Montreal could be an officially bilingual city-state while Quebec could be officially French and Nunavik would be Inuit.

I am not sure what currency would be used but one could envision a Quebec dollar used by all 3 autonomous states. There could even be a 4th nation develop in the Laurentians, that being the nation of Rael and the Raelians.

I would expect that Montreal and Rupert's Land would vote to remain part of Canada actually. Business as usual.
 
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