speculation on the us canada border

[gaby]

..et il semblerait que les Américains auraient décidé de ne pas reconnaître ceux qui ont MIXÉ leurs vaccins.....soit par exemple ont recu un Moderna et un Pfizer....wow....apparamment plus de 2,5 millions de Canadiens se retrouvent dans cette situation....
ASAP de sérieuses discussions pour en arriver à un accord....ce qui va très certainement se produire.

 

[Fradi]

I don't understand what you're talking about. It does not reflect reality.

I was talking about not having any issues with fully vaccinated Americans coming to Canada under strict conditions but wanting to have the border closed to Canadians. I was replying to those comments. That was what didn’t makes sense to me and still doesn’t.
I am well aware of the fact that Canadians have been free to travel by air to the US. I knew people that went to vacation in Florida and to get their vaccination ahead of all of us.

 

[transatlantic]

Guys, there is an alternative. Fly to Burlington, Vermont and rent a car. Crossing and returning by land is easier. I did it many times even in pre Covid times.

Plattsburgh (PBG) is an as well alternative but not as much air service as BTV.

The current administration clearly has no idea how to effectively work with either our southern or northern borders. To the south we are letting everyone in through Mexico and to the north we are keeping Canadian's out. I don't get it at all.

I remember the beginning of the pandemic like it was yesterday. I was planning a trip to Montreal late in February. The travel ban from China happened January 31st 2020 and that's where things started to get bad. All of February there was more and more reports about COVID. Towards the end of February I thought to myself that I didn't want to be stuck outside of the country in case the border got closed so I cancelled my trip. Prior to February I hadn't been to Montreal since the previous summer so in hindsight I wish that I did go just to get it out of my system. Anyway, a lot of what many are saying here now are the same issues I was thinking about in 2020.

What if you get sick while your in Canada? I would be very concerned about the healthcare. Not that either country has better healthcare than the other, but the fact that most healthcare coverages you get in the US do not cover you when you travel to another country. So even though I'm vaccinated and have a minimal chance of getting really sick from COVID, there are no guarantees. Being in Canada, hospitalized from COVID, not being permitted to go back to the states for healthcare would financially destroy many.

For now it's just not worth the hassle IMHO.

Based on your prior posts, I take it you're in the Northeast. I don't see this being a if driving. CDC test requirement does not apply to land crossing. Worst case is you have to do a U turn and drive back into the US if random testing upon arrival is positive but chances of that happening are really really low considering you would have to had a negative pre-arrival test within 72 hours prior.

While I agree with you that there are way too many stupid politicians, there may be more too it. I think that it's at least possible that the US government's decision to extent the border closure for Canadians could be part of a diplomatic effort to get the Canadian government to relax the excessive requirements for fully vaccinated US citizens who want to enter Canada.

Not quite following. What excessive requirements are you specifically referring to? US air border has always been open to Canadians.

• Pre-arrival test - US is also requiring (not for land but for air). European countries requiring as well so it is hardly an exclusively Canadian requirement. Excessive is Australia and Hong Kong.
• Random post-arrival testing - I hardly call that excessive.

It all comes down to politics. Did you read the strict conditions and protocols required for Americans to even come to Canada? Other Merbites mentioned them in this thread. I would never bother to come with those types of restrictions. Canada is too influenced by the left and socialism so they are too over protective. However since this entirety of this pandemic Canadians have been traveling to the US, I know a bunch of strippers who spent some months in Miami. Having said that they found a way to bypass the restrictions I do not know the whole details. They can fly but on the way back they took a chartered car ride back to Canada and were not required to quarantine at a hotel. Some just flew back but never bothered to quarantine at a hotel the fine they got is actually cheaper then the $2000 hotel fee. All this were smokes and mirrors just to show that politicians were doing something. However no American were allowed into Canada by land or flight no exceptions allowed.

Not quite following. Maybe I missed a post, but what strict conditions?

Here is how I make sense of what doesn’t make sense to you. From Day One, U.S. politicians have blamed this on The Outsiders. It was the China Virus, and then it spread outside China because the Europeans didn’t close their borders to the Chinese, and American kept traveling to Europe. Now the U.S. is arrogant enough to keep its borders closed to The Outsiders, even when they open their borders to Americans (and even though the U.S. has worse statistics than they do). And it punishes potential U.S. international travelers with a policy that says, if you leave and catch COVID, you can just damn well stay on The Outside. And unless the international trip is really short, the U.S. will know if you caught it since you have to pay for the test to get back in. And you have to tell the airline your health status, medical privacy be damned. You left The Homeland, so you forfeited all those rights.

Make sense now? I think it was STN that said his kids and their friends had expressed a preference for Spanish beaches over Florida. I suspect if the politicians in the U.S. continue their arrogance, the U.S. will lose many young people as potential tourists.

Of course the U.S. borders should be opened on a reciprocal basis to Canadians at the same time the Canadian borders opened to the U.S. But it isn’t logic being applied here, it is political pandering to those who haven’t ever left their county, let alone their country.

What's the alternative? I don't see preventing outbound international travel like Australia working in the US. Quarantine in post-arrival in US doesn't seem workable. Next best option is to discourage US residents from international travel to begin with by requiring a negative test to re-enter. Feds were clever by requiring airlines to enforce this on foreign soil instead of CBP enforcing at port of entry as the later would have been difficult to implement (can't declare US citizens inadmissible to be returned to foreign country and no federal/local/state agency has the capability to enforce a quarantine on mass scale).

As for the border, I don't see why it has to be reciprocal considering

• it's never been reciprocal at all (non-essential US inbound by air allowed)
• Canada didn't have to open at all.
• US policy is not reciprocal between US and Schengen or UK.

 

[Stroker7]

If it is indeed true that you don't need a covid test to return back to the States via a land border crossing, it's a no brainer, just drive to Montreal. I'm not a fan of all the hoops one needs to go through to get back up there, but it's certainly better than the alternative of the border continuing to be closed. Hopefully some time down the line, the rules may change, but for now, this is the new normal

 

[transatlantic]

Here are stats on post-arrival positive rate. Airport positive rates (3 in 1,000) are a bit higher than Land (1 in 1,000) as Air will contain travelers from all countries. Overall positive arrival rates are low.

Canada's COVID-19 border measures data - Canada.ca

Data on the number of people entering Canada, the number of tests collected and the number of positive COVID-19 tests among them.

www.canada.ca

Border testing results as of July 15, 2021
	Air		Land
Date	Tests completed	Percent positive	Total tests completed	Percent positive
Feb 21-28, 2021	10,117​	1.40%​	2,535​	0.20%​
Mar 1-31, 2021	125,953​	1.60%​	43,439​	0.30%​
Apr 1-30, 2021	175,171​	2.10%​	87,109​	0.30%​
May 1-31, 2021	161,786​	0.40%​	128,235​	0.20%​
June 1-30, 2021	192,653​	0.30%​	121,423​	0.10%​
July 1-15, 2021	155,097​	0.30%​	64,524​	0.20%​

Reiterating that I don't see driving as an issue as Canada is going to switch to random arrival testing and you can just U-turn back. No negative test requirement on land crossing into US as of this post. I don't see a land test requirement being imposed by US on US citizens if Canada cases are low. As of this post, US cases rising (132 cases per million people vs. Canada 10 cases per million people).

Coronavirus (COVID-19) Cases

Explore data on COVID-19 cases across the world.

ourworldindata.org

 

[Like_It_Hot]

the fact that most healthcare coverages you get in the US do not cover you when you travel to another country. So even though I'm vaccinated and have a minimal chance of getting really sick from COVID, there are no guarantees. Being in Canada, hospitalized from COVID, not being permitted to go back to the states for healthcare would financially destroy many.

What a strange country you are living in. Never hearded about special insurance for travelers? Adding to that that healthcare are much less expensive in Canada... Blue Cross can cover you (even against COVID) and my American Express card also cover me against COVID.

 

[IamNY]

What a strange country you are living in. Never hearded about special insurance for travelers? Adding to that that healthcare are much less expensive in Canada... Blue Cross can cover you (even against COVID) and my American Express card also cover me against COVID.

I don't think US healthcare companies are the only ones that will not cover you while traveling in other countries. Many people purchase separate healthcare insurance when traveling.

 

[gallantca]

I don't think US healthcare companies are the only ones that will not cover you while traveling in other countries. Many people purchase separate healthcare insurance when traveling.

Do Americans normally take travel insurance or is it usually bundled in some other coverage ?

It used to be a big thing here but more and more credit cards are making it part of their offering. Especially the cards that are more travel points. For example I have a Mastercard that I took just because it gave access to a lounge at Trudeau airport. But it covers all medical insurance so when I buy my plane ticket I'm covered. At the beginning there were a lot of "covid is not covered", but that is less the case now ?

 

[IamNY]

Do Americans normally take travel insurance or is it usually bundled in some other coverage ?

It used to be a big thing here but more and more credit cards are making it part of their offering. Especially the cards that are more travel points. For example I have a Mastercard that I took just because it gave access to a lounge at Trudeau airport. But it covers all medical insurance so when I buy my plane ticket I'm covered. At the beginning there were a lot of "covid is not covered", but that is less the case now ?

Great question. Before COVID I didn't really research any of this. Looks like if anyone is traveling internationally it's time to make sure what coverages they have as well as what options they have to get healthcare coverage abroad.

Looked this up on the CDC website:

Travel Insurance | Travelers' Health | CDC

Travel Insurance

wwwnc.cdc.gov

 

[gallantca]

Great question. Before COVID I didn't really research any of this. Looks like if anyone is traveling internationally it's time to make sure what coverages they have as well as what options they have to get healthcare coverage abroad.

Looked this up on the CDC website:

Travel Insurance | Travelers' Health | CDC

Travel Insurance

wwwnc.cdc.gov

Maybe we're more aware of it because a) we travel more to the US than anywhere b) if something happens in the US, the costs are crazy. So most people here are aware, although many choose not to take any. Snowbirds can spend a fortune on insurance since they are older and staying extended periods in the US.

I have had to use hospitals in France for broken bones. They took my Quebec card as part of a reciprocity deal. I had to go to the hospital in Germany and they didn't even ask me for anything.

In my personal life I do something that is not covered by many travel insurance plans because it is considered "extreme" (which it isn't). Not the case but imagine something like parachuting or motocross racing. I think that one is excluded.

 

[gll]

i may take a short trip to montreal mid to late august, driving across the border at champlain ny. it appears that i can get a rapid pcr test free of charge at the cvs, which is only a few blocks from my home. so testing should not be a major inconvenience. hoping to hear from others that have done this before i go. if not, i may toft.

 

[RobertNYC]

The current administration clearly has no idea how to effectively work with either our southern or northern borders. To the south we are letting everyone in through Mexico and to the north we are keeping Canadian's out. I don't get it at all.

I remember the beginning of the pandemic like it was yesterday. I was planning a trip to Montreal late in February. The travel ban from China happened January 31st 2020 and that's where things started to get bad. All of February there was more and more reports about COVID. Towards the end of February I thought to myself that I didn't want to be stuck outside of the country in case the border got closed so I cancelled my trip. Prior to February I hadn't been to Montreal since the previous summer so in hindsight I wish that I did go just to get it out of my system. Anyway, a lot of what many are saying here now are the same issues I was thinking about in 2020.

What if you get sick while your in Canada? I would be very concerned about the healthcare. Not that either country has better healthcare than the other, but the fact that most healthcare coverages you get in the US do not cover you when you travel to another country. So even though I'm vaccinated and have a minimal chance of getting really sick from COVID, there are no guarantees. Being in Canada, hospitalized from COVID, not being permitted to go back to the states for healthcare would financially destroy many.

For now it's just not worth the hassle IMHO.

Your post x 1,000. Nah, x 10,000

I’ll go to Montreal when it’s fun to go to Montreal. What’s described here ain’t fun. I’ll pay my $350/$400 hour here in NNJ/NYC for two appointments on consecutive days, grab a Molson, watch some live music at a bar or jazz club late at night and call it a similar experience.

I’m not jumping through hoops to go to Canada when in the past I woke up on a Saturday morning and on a whim said, “today would be a nice day to drive to Montreal. Wonder who is available at Euphoria?”

Let’s hope travel is turnkey in 2022. It’s amazing how governments can fuck you over one way or another in this hobby. I can’t imagine folks wanting to travel up against this BS.

 

[masterP]

Based on your prior posts, I take it you're in the Northeast. I don't see this being a if driving. CDC test requirement does not apply to land crossing. Worst case is you have to do a U turn and drive back into the US if random testing upon arrival is positive but chances of that happening are really really low considering you would have to had a negative pre-arrival test within 72 hours prior.



Not quite following. What excessive requirements are you specifically referring to? US air border has always been open to Canadians.

• Pre-arrival test - US is also requiring (not for land but for air). European countries requiring as well so it is hardly an exclusively Canadian requirement. Excessive is Australia and Hong Kong.
• Random post-arrival testing - I hardly call that excessive.

There seems to be a lack of details on the requirements that the Canadian government is placing on US citizens who want to cross the border into Canada. Maybe I'm assuming the worst case, but until I see otherwise that is what I will do.

If crossing by land into Canada, a quarantine plan is required. No details on what this entails or what is acceptable.

Is there an option to turn around and go back to the US if you fail a random Covid test at the border or if border patrol thinks you are showing symptoms of Covid? I haven't seen this written anywhere. There's no way I'm coming up if there's even a remote chance that I'll be held prisoner for two weeks. If I don't work, I don't get paid (not to mention possibly losing my job if I don't show up for two weeks). The economic impact for me would be too great to risk.

From what I have read, it sounds like there is a requirement to wear a mask at all times in public, keep proof of my vaccination status on me, and keep a lists of places visited and close contacts while I'm in Canada. That seems excessive considering that I can't even cross the border unless I'm fully vaccinated. What are the consequences if I fail to follow these rules and get caught?

I live in Vermont and work on the weekends. If I come up it will be on a Monday or a Tuesday. Covid tests taken where I live have to be processed by a lab in Boston. The free testing that is available in my town has a three business-day turn around time. Even that is not guaranteed and there is no option for expedited results. I haven't yet looked into the cost and turn-around time for other testing options, but with a weekend preceding my departure, I suspect that it will be expensive and/or difficult to get test results when I would need them.

 

[transatlantic]

There seems to be a lack of details on the requirements that the Canadian government is placing on US citizens who want to cross the border into Canada. Maybe I'm assuming the worst case, but until I see otherwise that is what I will do.

If crossing by land into Canada, a quarantine plan is required. No details on what this entails or what is acceptable.

Is there an option to turn around and go back to the US if you fail a random Covid test at the border or if border patrol thinks you are showing symptoms of Covid? I haven't seen this written anywhere. There's no way I'm coming up if there's even a remote chance that I'll be held prisoner for two weeks. If I don't work, I don't get paid (not to mention possibly losing my job if I don't show up for two weeks). The economic impact for me would be too great to risk.

From what I have read, it sounds like there is a requirement to wear a mask at all times in public, keep proof of my vaccination status on me, and keep a lists of places visited and close contacts while I'm in Canada. That seems excessive considering that I can't even cross the border unless I'm fully vaccinated. What are the consequences if I fail to follow these rules and get caught?

I live in Vermont and work on the weekends. If I come up it will be on a Monday or a Tuesday. Covid tests taken where I live have to be processed by a lab in Boston. The free testing that is available in my town has a three business-day turn around time. Even that is not guaranteed and there is no option for expedited results. I haven't yet looked into the cost and turn-around time for other testing options, but with a weekend preceding my departure, I suspect that it will be expensive and/or difficult to get test results when I would need them.

Technically the quarantine plan is a hotel booking for 14 days but Canada is not preventing departures. For practical purposes, the quarantine plan for a land crossing will be useless as driver will just turn around back to US. It's tricky if departure by air as airlines may not board a flight to US without a negative test as per CDC orders.

As to Quebec mask requirements being excessive....when in Rome. These requirements are being applied not just to foreigners; they are applied to the general public.

 

[transatlantic]

It's been reported that this $40USD PCR at home PCR test is acceptable for travel. Take sample at home (no virtual monitoring), ship if off via next day UPS and get results within 24 hours. In theory, results should be available 2 business days from dropping off sample.

Amazon.com

 

[Like_It_Hot]

^^^^^^^^ Amazon states that:

• TRAVEL COMPLIANT – Meets requirements for testing when traveling within the US (except Hawaii), and when traveling from the US to many international locations. Includes access to results documentation for verification.

I wonder which "international destination" accept it (even Hawaï does not accept it). How can they be sure the test is 1- Done properly and 2- The sample comes from the same person claiming the test.
It's one thing to accept someone else introducing a swab in our own nose. It's an other thing to do it ourself. It is important to go deep as the test will be a lot more sensitive if you just get it in the nose.
My other concern is people who will fool the system by sending someone else sample and pretending it is their sample. In this case it would be better to engage the responsability of a tier one, say a pharmacist or an other professional as a nurse. This said I have no doubt on the lab or on the result but the quality of the sample is very important.

 

[Like_It_Hot]

On the CDC site I found that. It seems virtual monitoring is needed and positive tests should be reported.
source: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/travelers/testing-international-air-travelers.html

Does a self-test meet the conditions of the Order?
International air passengers traveling to the United States can use a self-test (sometimes referred to as home test) that meets the following criteria:

• The test must be a SARS-CoV-2 viral test (nucleic acid amplification test [NAAT] or antigen test) with Emergency Use Authorization (EUA) from the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA).
• The testing procedure must include a telehealth service affiliated with the manufacturer of the test that provides real-time supervision remotely through an audio and video connection. Some FDA-authorized self-tests that include a telehealth service may require a prescription.
• The telehealth provider must confirm the person’s identity, observe the specimen collection and testing procedures, confirm the test result, and issue a report that meets the requirements of CDC’s Order (see “What information must be included in the test result?” below).
• Airlines and other aircraft operators must be able to review and confirm the person’s identity and the test result details. The passenger must also be able to present the documentation of test results to U.S. officials at the port of entry and local/state health departments, if requested.

For travelers who test positive, CDC recommends the telehealth provider report positive test results to relevant public health authorities in the traveler’s location following local requirements. The telehealth provider should also counsel the traveler on what they and their close contacts should do. This would include not traveling until they complete isolation (if infected) or quarantine (if exposed), in accordance with local requirements.

 

[transatlantic]

^^^^^^^^ Amazon states that:

• TRAVEL COMPLIANT – Meets requirements for testing when traveling within the US (except Hawaii), and when traveling from the US to many international locations. Includes access to results documentation for verification.

I wonder which "international destination" accept it (even Hawaï does not accept it). How can they be sure the test is 1- Done properly and 2- The sample comes from the same person claiming the test.
It's one thing to accept someone else introducing a swab in our own nose. It's an other thing to do it ourself. It is important to go deep as the test will be a lot more sensitive if you just get it in the nose.
My other concern is people who will fool the system by sending someone else sample and pretending it is their sample. In this case it would be better to engage the responsability of a tier one, say a pharmacist or an other professional as a nurse. This said I have no doubt on the lab or on the result but the quality of the sample is very important.

Pretty much any country that accept testing accept PCR like this one including Schengen, Canada and US.

Apparently I don’t think any country is concern that name on test matches person who provided sample other than Hawaii because in practice this is impossible to enforce; testing partners to too fragmented globally.

Hawaii only accepts from certain lab partners because Hawaii want to be able to audit what you upload to SafeTravels matches lab records. However there is no certainly that person presenting themselves for testing in person is person of record as lab checking ID is inconsistent.

Pharmacy checking ID has been YMMV. I personally had three tests performed at pharmacy in past 8 weeks and did not have to show my ID at all. That just took whatever name I put on the online booking page. This was at a Hawaii testing partner. One of the test is for travel to Hawaii.

Pharmacy where I took the vaccine didn’t check ID either for the vaccine administration. They also just went with appointments details.

 

[Stroker7]

Great question. Before COVID I didn't really research any of this. Looks like if anyone is traveling internationally it's time to make sure what coverages they have as well as what options they have to get healthcare coverage abroad.

Looked this up on the CDC website:

Travel Insurance | Travelers' Health | CDC

Travel Insurance

wwwnc.cdc.gov

Anybody have any recommendations for a reputable company that provides medical travel insurance? There's a lot to choose from online but many look shady from reviews

 

[masterP]

So, anyone planning to go to Canada from the US tomorrow?