The Death Penalty to 40 years old Vince Li !! See him I have the link !!

[korbel]

1. Terrible, reprehensible, ghoulish crime.

2. He is clearly suffering severe mental health problems.

3. Interesting 2nd degree and not first degree murder charged.

4. Let us be measured by how the worst among us are dealt with - as frustrating as it is, let the case work its way through the system.

5. Do you really think we should put the mentally ill to death?

6. Doc, interesting 3 part article on you recently in the National Post.

7. I await everyones agreement with me.

8. Lets not lose our heads over this one.

Hello Dee,

If we presume that the culprit of every crime of a particularly heinous nature is clinically mentally disturbed then why execute the likes of Ted Bundy and many others including top political leaders who have killed many thousands of innocents. There are legally definable conditions for mental illness and no one should presume the crimes themselves indicates it. Bundy and Dahmer slaughtered people then had sex with their dead bodies. Yet they were not found mentally ill in any way that mitigated their personal responsibility, and I doubt that such evaluations in such cases are generally pushed by public or political pressure as some might wish to suggest. If he is ill, that can be determined professionally. It isn't right to presume so just because of the savagery of the crime.

Cheers,

Korbel

 

[Dee]

Unfortunately whenever we refer to issues like this where psychotic killers are involved we immediately tend to lump them in with the general mentally ill population. Of course I don't mean putting Uncle Harry who insists on watering the lawn in the rain to death. I am talking about extremely dangerous psychotic types who have killed brutally

Even in places where the death penalty is extant the people you would have exposed to it are precisely the people who would be found not guilty because of insanity. Even in dear old Texas I expect.

But I am also getting the impression that as in all arguments where the death penalty is concerned the anti's present the argument that "let cooler heads prevail". As usual we are letting sentiment cloud the issue. the "let cooler heads prevail" argument is just one more manifestation of the political correctness wave of sentiment which tends to be used to silence the voice of rational argument.

I understand what you say and the frustration...

but,,, with respect to the sentence that I've been enbolded to bold I wonder if it might apply, in the context of the present thread and discussion, at least a tiny bit more to the pro capital punishment group then to the anti "group".... some random quotes - even discounting for some hyperbole, I think some careful sniffing may detect at least a faint whiff of sentiment:

this cock sucker should be beheaded himself, put it on pay per view and break out the popcorn and beer so we can cheer it on. Yes i would pay to see it!!!!!!!!!!!

I would pay HEAVY to see
his execution !

lets save some more money and not even give this prick a trial, sell tickets, behead him and get it over with.

Now the Police should of shot him while he was walking with the victims head !!! Who would of protest the shot ... No one !

at least he should be castrated to avoid his reproduction.

he deserves to be stabbed in the same manner and then beheaded

--------------------------------------------------------

Actually I think there are strong arguments to be made on both sides of the question, but like with abortion peoples' minds aren't likely to be changed, nor be open to further weigh the issue.

 

[Dee]

Hello Dee,

If we presume that the culprit of every crime of a particularly heinous nature is clinically mentally disturbed then why execute the likes of Ted Bundy and many others including top political leaders who have killed many thousands of innocents. There are legally definable conditions for mental illness and no one should presume the crimes themselves indicates it. Bundy and Dahmer slaughtered people then had sex with their dead bodies. Yet they were not found mentally ill, and I doubt that such evaluations in such cases are generally pushed by public or political pressure as some might wish to suggest. If he is ill, that can be determined professionally. It isn't right to presume so just because of the savagery of the crime.

Cheers,

Korbel

Damn you Korbel.... excellent point!!!

I hope I wouldn't draw that conclusion in every case.... but here I do based on my grade 12 psychology and psychiatrists quoted in the papers. It's not solely the savagery but also his comportment when carrying out the crime.

Maybe I only get this from TV but I think the test is something like: was he capable of knowing right from wrong and able to understand the nature and quality of the act (don't take this to the bank.)

But as you suggest we'll have to let the experts work it out.... my money is that he was mentally ill to the extent it provides him a defence.

Hey its Saturday night 10:30 PM, I'm in Montreal I should be out getting taken advantage of.

 

[joelcairo]

Who cares if this prick is mentally ill or not? Kill the bastard, preferably in a slow and painful way. Screw the mentally incompetent defense in this and all other cases. If someone commits a terrible crime of violence get rid of him once and for all.

 

[korbel]

Damn you Korbel.... excellent point!!!

I hope I wouldn't draw that conclusion in every case.... but here I do based on my grade 12 psychology and psychiatrists quoted in the papers. It's not solely the savagery but also his comportment when carrying out the crime.

Maybe I only get this from TV but I think the test is something like: was he capable of knowing right from wrong and able to understand the nature and quality of the act (don't take this to the bank.)

But as you suggest we'll have to let the experts work it out.... my money is that he was mentally ill to the extent it provides him a defence.

Hey its Saturday night 10:30 PM, I'm in Montreal I should be out getting taken advantage of.

Hello Dee,

I don't know the precise wording, but that sounds like a very close approximation. Another part has something to do with the path/steps to the crime. Did he have a fit of passion or did he proceed with an ordered set of choices that might show a plan. Changing his seat might be a bit thin, but it sure shows he made his choice by sitting next to the victim. Moving his bags might also be said to show a plan to deceive others into thinking he just wanted to relocate. I admit that too is very thin and little more than speculation. But, it could be enough to legally prove a plan. Culprits have been found mentally disturbed but responsible when a certain order in their thought processes is shown.

Who cares if this prick is mentally ill or not? Kill the bastard, preferably in a slow and painful way. Screw the mentally incompetent defense in this and all other cases. If someone commits a terrible crime of violence get rid of him once and for all.

Thanks Joelcairo for bringing us the "fuck em all no matter what" viewpoint.

Hmmm,

Korbel

 

[eastender]

First Degree Murder

Hello Nadya,

First, shouldn't this have gone in the beheading thread already started.

I have to agree with Daringly. I am shocked this guy is being charged with "second degree murder". He changed seats and sat next to the victim, then began to simply slaughter him like a sacrificial animal in some satanic ritual. The fact that he changed seats to be close to the victim shows a basis for premeditation, which in the U.S. would be grounds for first degree murder. It's especially heinous if as it seems the victim was just random and innocent having made no offense and with no history of conflict with the murderer. I'm afraid in such a case, and due the the horrific nature of the crime, this is one of those rare times I would say "eye for an eye" applies given what we know so far.

Simply barbaric,

Korbel

The following link provides a working definition of murder in Canadian jurisdictions:

http://www.owjn.org/info/murder.htm

All the details have not been made public BUT based on what is known there were two buses travelling together from Edmonton and the alleged killer moved to the empty seat beside the victim.

Random selection or choice would best describe how the passengers wound-up on each bus. That the seat beside the victim was vacant is a random event since no one could predict that the specific seat would be empty nor was there any pre-assigned seating that could support a theory of a planned targeted attack.

By your own admission there were random characteristics to the alleged crime.

The prosecutor filled the appropriate second degree murder charge since his job is to win a conviction.

 

[bond_james_bond]

The prosecutor filled the appropriate second degree murder charge since his job is to win a conviction.

I thought that prosecutors often over-charge, in order to get a plea deal.

So, in theory, he could have gone from 1st to 2nd degree for some bargaining power.

With 2nd degree initially, couldn't a defense attorney plead it down to manslaughter? Then the dude's out in a few years.

If it goes to court, it would seem to me that the defense would raise an insanity defense, and I think a jury would probably buy it in this case. Then the dude would get no conviction, although it's likely he would be ordered to be confined to a mental institution.

 

[korbel]

I thought that prosecutors often over-charge, in order to get a plea deal.

So, in theory, he could have gone from 1st to 2nd degree for some bargaining power.

With 2nd degree initially, couldn't a defense attorney plead it down to manslaughter? Then the dude's out in a few years.

If it goes to court, it would seem to me that the defense would raise an insanity defense, and I think a jury would probably buy it in this case. Then the dude would get no conviction, although it's likely he would be ordered to be confined to a mental institution.

Hello BJB,

You are right in my view. It should have been 1st degree to start. Actually it should be 1st degree period. Did you all read the link posted by Sexy Nadya? Do we all realize the family just spoke to him by cell and was expecting him home, and now has to live with the fact this young guy was treated worse than a lab rat; like an inhuman piece of trash. Frankly, I favor the kind of sentencing process that allows juries a range of options, especially in this case. That way the prosecutor doesn't have to bargain for fear of what the jury might accept.

Cheers,

Korbel

 

[eastender]

Canadian Criminal Trials

I thought that prosecutors often over-charge, in order to get a plea deal.

So, in theory, he could have gone from 1st to 2nd degree for some bargaining power.

With 2nd degree initially, couldn't a defense attorney plead it down to manslaughter? Then the dude's out in a few years.

If it goes to court, it would seem to me that the defense would raise an insanity defense, and I think a jury would probably buy it in this case. Then the dude would get no conviction, although it's likely he would be ordered to be confined to a mental institution.

The case will be tried in a Canadian Criminal Court - not in the USA. Most criminal cases in Canada are heard by a judge, not a jury.

A good defense lawyer - the alleged killer will get one of the better ones even if he cannot afford it since the case has the potential to make a reputation will go for a win and a weak first degree murder charge may be easier to handle for the defense. Remember most trials are not won BUT lost - evidenced by the poor police and prosecutorial work in the Parasiris trial.

In Canada manslaughter is usually the charge or outcome if a history of confrontation may be shown between the victim and the alleged killer even if there is a serious mismatch physically. See the examples cited in the link provided previously.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Doc, interesting 3 part article on you recently in the National Post.

Thank you very much, Dee. I've begun to read the articles & find them fascinating:

http://www.nationalpost.com/story.html?id=684233

http://www.nationalpost.com/story.html?id=688535

(but i can't find part 2 which came out on July 29th)

 

[Dee]

http://www.nationalpost.com/story.html?id=688535

(but i can't find part 2 which came out on July 29th)

Hi Doc I tried too but I couldn't either..

Here is what I found on the insanity defence in Canada on Wikipedia:

The defence of mental disorder is codified in section 16 of the Criminal Code of Canada which states, in part: 16. (1) No person is criminally responsible for an act committed or an omission made while suffering from a mental disorder that rendered the person incapable of appreciating the nature and quality of the act or omission or of knowing that it was wrong. To establish a claim of mental disorder the party raising the issue must show on a balance of probabilities first that the person who committed the act was suffering from a "disease of the mind", and second, that at the time of the offence they were either 1) unable to appreciate the "nature and quality" of the act, or 2) did not know it was "wrong".


The meaning of the word "wrong" was determined in the Supreme Court case of R. v. Chaulk [1990] 3 S.C.R. which held that "wrong" was NOT restricted to "legally wrong" but to "morally wrong" as well.


This defence was very little used until 1992, as before that date a finding of insanity meant that the accused could be confined indefinitely to a mental institution. The punishment for being found insane was thus often considerably greater than being found guilty. Allegations of insanity were thus often brought by the crown, rather than the defence. In 1992 this system was changed as courts ruled that indefinite institutionalization without a system of regular review was wrong. A system of regular review and assessment was introduced in 1992. The law now provides that all forensic psychiatric patients will have their case reviewed by a Review Board at least every 12 months (or in some cases up to 24 months). So long as the accused remains a significant threat to public safety (section 672.54 of the Criminal Code), he or she will remain either in custody or under forensic supervision in the community.

 

[EagerBeaver]

Dee,

Li apparently worked as a courier for the Edmonton Journal and National Post, delivering your newspapers, and reportedly was a normal, friendly, reliable employee:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/08/01/stabbing-victim.html

He also had no criminal record at the age of 40. Usually if a person is a fuck up in life, he will have accumulated a criminal record before the age of 40. I have represented criminal defendants in their 40s with no record, and I always go hard on the clean record defense (which is a relevant consideration in sentencing, though not an actual defense to the crime charged). Recently had a threatening and breach of peace case against a 40 year old tossed with 1 year probation where it was essentially my only defense (that and "it was a poor choice of words, conceived in the heat of the moment").

I am also surprised the prosecutor did not overcharge, based on what I read. It seems like the correct charge but as BJB noted prosecutors (at least in the USA) will often deliberately overcharge for negotiating purposes. But I don't know much about how criminal cases get prosecuted in Canada. It's probably very helpful in defending a case like this to have it in front of a judge rather than a jury. Because then you are just arguing the law. With a jury you would be forced to argue the facts, and the facts here ain't pleasant.

 

[Techman]

Thank you very much, Dee. I've begun to read the articles & find them fascinating:

http://www.nationalpost.com/story.html?id=684233

http://www.nationalpost.com/story.html?id=688535

(but i can't find part 2 which came out on July 29th)

Here you go Doc. Fascinating read.

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2008/07/29/ian-hunter-on-doc-holliday-the-30-second-gunfight-at-the-ok-corral.aspx

Now so I am topic: This guy, whether he can be considered insane or not, can never be considered to be rehabilitated. He can never be released from either prison or whatever institution he ends up in. So what is the point of putting him into one? I am 100 percent in favour of the death penalty in cases like this. I really don't care what method is used, hanging, gas chamber, electric chair, lethal injection...take your pick. But yeah, I think this guy shouild be executed.

But with our wonderful justice system does anyone want to bet that he will be back on the street one day?

Techman

 

[Regular Guy]

Definitive solutions

I understand what you say and the frustration...

but,,, with respect to the sentence that I've been enbolded to bold I wonder if it might apply, in the context of the present thread and discussion, at least a tiny bit more to the pro capital punishment group then to the anti "group".... some random quotes - even discounting for some hyperbole, I think some careful sniffing may detect at least a faint whiff of sentiment:

Fair enough Dee. I have no problem keeping the discussion an academic one. My frustration is with the political correctness gambit often employed in argument and statements like "I don't know what the answer is but the death penalty isn't it." It may be effective rhetoric but is not helpful in the pursuit of a resolution to any issue.

There are many issues in life for which a pragmatic though unpleasant approach must be taken. There is a philosophical tenet that all societies tend to gravitate towards chaos. It is easy to don the sandwich board and shout long and loud that there is always a kinder, gentler way. The reality is that it is not always the case. Sometimes we have to do the unpleasant because we know it is right or it is the best solution for the times to save lives. I realize that in this thread we have the makings of a lynch mob. I am not one of those. I find executions particularly abhorrent even for those involved in extreme violence. For those who kill for gain or as a spinoff of some violent altercation I believe we must ensure that our views concerning this sort of thing are extreme and clear. Judges already have lots of wiggle room in sentencing to take this sort of thing into consideration. But until there is anyone who can convince me that they can predict with absolute certainty that such behaviour is not hardwired into offenders like Li then we must ensure that the climate of our justice system reflects our resolve. The argument that it is not a perfect world and mistakes may be made where innocent ones may be executed in error cuts both ways. The release of a seemingly rehabilitated monster back among us has far too often resulted in unspeakable horror and tragedy for good people. Executions at any time are not much fun and lead often to a collective sense of self recrimination but until a better more definitive solution comes along society must do what has to be done to protect itself. So unless protesters (even with the best intentions) of the death penalty can demonstrate to me a clear and definitive solution, in my mind they are doing nothing more than simply clouding the issue and may be putting the rest of us in extreme danger.

 

[alice_wonderland]

When I read story it say guy listen to music. Maybe music is very loud and heavy metal or something? I sit in bus with people like this and is very annoying. I dont think 'kill' but am tired to here music. The more annoying is people who talk whole trip on cell with friend and tell all the things that happen today. Maybe he schizophrene and go on delusion and here voice say 'kill to end noise'. I think man have to be mentally not well and have paranoia before he do what he do. I dont want to protect, but I have friend who ex-boyfriend become schizophrene and he do very scary things. She have to call police because he here voice in his head. You have to be very sick to kill like that. I am very sad for man who be killed. Imagine you sit on bus next to person like this I guess is like litening and does not happen often. I hope... Maybe I am 'bleeding heart' because I dont think we should kill him too. I think need to be in hospital forever. I know taxpayer money but my friend ex-boyfriend is nice before he become sick and do crazy thing because he here voice to tell him do it. He have medication now and is like légume (legume?). Same thing like being dead anyway but no one flip switch to electrocute. I prefer pay money instead to kill.

My condoleances to family.

Quand j'ai lu cette histoire je me souviens que le gars écoutait de la musique. Je me suis dit que peut-être la musique était très forte et dérangeante. J'ai déjà été assise dans un bus à côté de quelqu'un qui écoutait sa musique au max et c'est vraiment énervant. Comme ceux qui passent leur voyage au téléphone - aucun respect pour les autres assis près d'eux qui ne sont peut-être pas intéressés à savoir tout ce qu'ils ont fait dans leur journée. C'est sûr que ça ne me pousserais pas à tuer, mais si j'étais schizophrène peut-être que ça me suffisait pour entrer dans un délire schizophrénique. Ils entendent des voix. L'ex chum de ma meilleure copine est devenu schizophrène (du jour au lendemain) et laissez moi vous dire que c'est vraiment effrayant comment ils 'pêtent une coche' pour rien, dans l'espace d'une seconde. Les 'voix' lui disaient de faire tel ou tel truc. C'est imprévisible. Je ne veux pas défendre l'homme qui a si sauvagement tué ce jeune, mais je ne vois pas comment une personne saine d'esprit peut passer à de tels actes. Je déplore ce qui c'est passé, mais même si c'était mon fils je ne voudrait pas qu'on impose à cet homme la peine de mort. L'ex chum de ma copine est maintenant médicamenté et complètement légume - c'est comme s'il était mort de toute façon. Je préfère ça à la peine de mort, même si ce sont mes impôts qui règlent la facture. Faut être fou pour faire ça. C'est vraiment triste et terrifiant. On espère que ce genre d'événement est comme se faire frapper par la foudre - rare.

Mes condoléances à la famille,

Alice

 

[GTA refugee]

Predjudice = pre - judge.

We do not know all the facts, we are fairly sure that this man has done a crime and has taken a life. Under what circumstances, we are not certain at this time. Was he under the influence of a legal or illegal substance? Is he mentaly ill? In high school I knew a guy that has a sociopathic personality, this person would make himself feel powerful by putting people down and creating circumstances where other peoples good would look bad and his evils would be minimalized. This person told me that his friends strung a guy along. They made him believe that he was accepted in their group when in fact he was taunted and rejected all the time. Eventualy this guy had to be taken away because he had a mental break down. We all could be effected by circumstances or other people around us. Orientals seem to take more crap from other people than people of other ethnic backgrounds, I just wonder if this is a case where he had been bullied and taunted. In the case of the young Korean man that killed 33 people at Virginia Tech, it was known that he was taunted because he had a speach impediment. In this case as well as the Virginia Tech murders, do you equate these two with Paul Bernardo or even Carla Homolka? Carla is walking around a free woman.

 

[JustBob]

Unfortunately for Greyhound, this tragedy occured right after they began their "Don't lose your head over the high cost of travel" campaign.

 

[YouVantOption]

Bloodlust

For those of you calling for this guy's head, I have but a few words for you:

Ruben 'Hurricane' Carter
Donald Marshall
Guy Paul Morin
David Milgaard
Wilbert Coffin
The Innocence Project

I find it amusing that someone would immediately think 'Islamic extremist' and then calls follow for precisely the type of punishment the Islamic extremists so enjoy.

Anyone here had a friend murdered? I've had one, who was decapitated, and a relative, who was killed by a murderer on parole. I met a group of people who were murdered the following week.

So save me the crap about me being a bleeding heart. I think there are just punishments, but taking a human life in retribution is not it, particularly since there is so much that can and does go wrong in evidentiary chains.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Taking a human life in retribution is not it, particularly since there is so much that can and does go wrong in evidentiary chains.

I agree. Capital punishment never solved anything & most of the time these psychopaths would prefer getting killed off than going on with their lives. We'd be doing them a favor. I actually wouldn't mind seeing him walk so that he could get the shit kicked out of him. But he won't walk. I'm afraid he might be put away from the rest of the prison population once he's found guilty.

 

[Joe.t]

For those of you calling for this guy's head, I have but a few words for you:

Ruben 'Hurricane' Carter
Donald Marshall
Guy Paul Morin
David Milgaard
Wilbert Coffin
The Innocence Project

I find it amusing that someone would immediately think 'Islamic extremist' and then calls follow for precisely the type of punishment the Islamic extremists so enjoy.

Anyone here had a friend murdered? I've had one, who was decapitated, and a relative, who was killed by a murderer on parole. I met a group of people who were murdered the following week.

So save me the crap about me being a bleeding heart. I think there are just punishments, but taking a human life in retribution is not it, particularly since there is so much that can and does go wrong in evidentiary chains.

You can add Steven Truscott to the list, I am totally against the death penalty, this guy is obviously a very sick individual, no one in their right mind could do this, this guy might even end up back on the street in 5 years just like Jeffrey Arenburg.