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The Death Penalty to 40 years old Vince Li !! See him I have the link !!

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It is interesting to see that Alice and GTA have difficulty accepting that anyone could commit such a monstrous act without some external cause. They are good people. God knows we could use more like them. They are having as much trouble getting their heads around this as I suspect is most of the general population. We never want to believe the worst of people. Today we tend to deal with it by making victims of all involved. Li is not a cold blooded killer.......He is a victim. How else can we explain such a monstrous act? As they say we don't know all the answers yet. That Li is a victim of anything is just speculation at this point. What do you do with him? Psychology is not an exact science. Can we take a chance that he will not offend again after treatment? Do you want to bet someone's life on it?
I recall one time reading an interview with a death row inmate in the US. This man had committed several vicious and sadistic killings. His kick was to kidnap young couples and force the young man to watch while he pushed the muzzle of his shotgun into the vagina of the girlfriend and pull the trigger. He enjoyed watching her in her death throes and the agony on the boyfriend's face as he was forced to watch. It is not a quick death. I am not making any of this up, by the way. And I recall during the interview his comment that he recognized that he deserved to be executed. He knew he was not redeemable. He was a sadistic killer. He could never be allowed back into the general population. That if he did anything worthwhile with his life it would be that his death would outline the seriousness with which society views such acts. His death would serve to create a context for the values which we apply to the sanctity of human life. By mitigating the circumstances of any act of murder committed by one individual against another we are making a statement about the regard with which we view the sanctity of human life and crime in general. We pride ourselves on the level of sophistication we have achieved. At times we are almost arrogant about it. But in the cold light of reason our legal system is as necessary today to protect us and define the value system which we live by as it has always done in the past. Does the imposition of a death penalty make us no better than those we apply it to? Well I would be prepared to accept life imprisonment if there were guarantees that all who are convicted never walk among us again. Given the present climate of belief in perpetrators being victims and the conviction that psychology can offer the answer to rehabilitation I am not convinced that some will never be released into our midst. There are too many examples of the slippery slope wherein the legal system subscribes or is pressured to subscribe to this train of thought and the tragic consequences born of a sense of entitlement to act out our frustrations violently. There is no answer in reason to definitively deal with the aberrations in the human psyche at present. Until that time there is no argument I have seen that will convince me that the death penalty or unconditional life imprisonment does not have a place in our legal system.
 

JustBob

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YouVantOption said:
So save me the crap about me being a bleeding heart. I think there are just punishments, but taking a human life in retribution is not it, particularly since there is so much that can and does go wrong in evidentiary chains.

I agree completely.

Here are the top 10 "executioners" for 2007

China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, USA, Iraq, Vietnam, Yemen, Afghanistan, Lybia.

Now find Waldo, and tell me what's wrong with that list...
 

Techman

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Dec 23, 2004
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Originally Posted by YouVantOption
For those of you calling for this guy's head, I have but a few words for you:

Ruben 'Hurricane' Carter
Donald Marshall
Guy Paul Morin
David Milgaard
Wilbert Coffin

Are you suggesting that there is the slightest chance in hell that this guy is innocent? You are against the death penalty, fine. But don't compare this lunatic with those who were wrongly imprisoned. Personally I pay enough taxes thank you and I don't really want any of my hard earned money going to pay for this guy's upkeep for the next 10, 20 or 30 years. But I will gladly pay for a bullet or for the cost of the drugs for a lethal injection.

Actually while we're at it, line up Olsen and Bernardo right next to this guy and I'll take them all out with one bullet. Save the Canadian taxpayers a fortune.

Techman
 
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Daringly

Techman said:
Are you suggesting that there is the slightest chance in hell that this guy is innocent? You are against the death penalty, fine. But don't compare this lunatic with those who were wrongly imprisoned.



The real killer probably slipped out the back of the bus and this poor fella picked the head up by mistake, there is no way he done it:)
 

YouVantOption

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Techman said:
Are you suggesting that there is the slightest chance in hell that this guy is innocent?

I don't know. The facts, most of them have not been released to the public. True, there have been some eyewitness reports, but one never knows. There was a town full of witnesses against Donald Marshall. Let's let the legal system to it's thing. He is accused, not convicted last time I checked.

Techman said:
You are against the death penalty, fine. But don't compare this lunatic with those who were wrongly imprisoned.

If he is a lunatic then the notion of a state killing is even more reprehensible. If and when he is convicted, he will begin to pay his penalty. I brought up the names not to compare Vincent Li to them, but to underscore why I am dead set, as it were, against the death penalty.

Techman said:
Personally I pay enough taxes thank you and I don't really want any of my hard earned money going to pay for this guy's upkeep for the next 10, 20 or 30 years.

"A society should be judged not by how it treats its outstanding citizens but by how it treats its criminals." - Fyodor Dostoevsky

I probably pay more in total taxes than you. That said, a tiny proportion of our individual taxes goes to support the justice system, and penal system. You can come up with a cumulative figure, but then apportion it out for a per murderer cost and the amount per taxpayer in Canada is trivial.

Yours is an argument brought up whenever there is a murder, a cliché. Sorry, but it isn't original, nor is it valid. "Cost savings by capital punishment" is just plain silly.

If you want to save money, and diminish your taxes, there are far greater areas worthy of examination for potential great savings. Abolishing the Senate comes to mind.
 

Techman

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Dec 23, 2004
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Actually all the other passengers, and the driver, teamed up and committed the murder. Then they ran off the bus and threw this guy the knife and held him on the bus to take the blame. :cool:

This should satisfy all the conspiracy nuts out there shouldn't it?
 

YouVantOption

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Daringly said:
The real killer probably slipped out the back of the bus and this poor fella picked the head up by mistake, there is no way he done it:)

How do you know, with 100% certainty, that the entire event was not a frame-up? I am not saying it was, I am saying that the police have a lot of investigatory work to do before we will know the facts, which is how we convict people. With facts, no (justifiably) hysterical eye-witness accounts.

Do we know for certain the victim didn't provoke or threaten, or hurt the accused?

There are any number of questions that need to be answered before leaping to conclusions and convicting Li, let alone putting the guy to death, which won't happen anyway, thank heavens, in this country.
 

Techman

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YouVantOption said:
I don't know. The facts, most of them have not been released to the public. True, there have been some eyewitness reports, but one never knows. There was a town full of witnesses against Donald Marshall. Let's let the legal system to it's thing. He is accused, not convicted last time I checked.

I probably pay more in total taxes than you. That said, a tiny proportion of our individual taxes goes to support the justice system, and penal system. You can come up with a cumulative figure, but then apportion it out for a per murderer cost and the amount per taxpayer in Canada is trivial.

Yours is an argument brought up whenever there is a murder, a cliché. Sorry, but it isn't original, nor is it valid. "Cost savings by capital punishment" is just plain silly.

If you want to save money, and diminish your taxes, there are far greater areas worthy of examination for potential great savings. Abolishing the Senate comes to mind.

It's not a matter of saving money. It's a matter of not spending it on these animals. I don't care if my taxdollars are flushed down the toilet as long as they don't go to keep these animals alive and safe from the general prison population.

You don't want to execute them? OK. How about this instead...we lock them up in a cage in the zoo like the animals they are. No comforts at all. No phone, no television, no toilet. If they want to behave like animals, then let them live like animals.

I don't know what you do for a living, but from your first statement I have a sneaking suspicion that you may be a lawyer. I just can't see anyone else having such faith in our justice system. Who knows, maybe he will get the same kind of just punishment that we give to child molestors.:cool:
 

Techman

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YouVantOption said:
How do you know, with 100% certainty, that the entire event was not a frame-up? I am not saying it was, I am saying that the police have a lot of investigatory work to do before we will know the facts, which is how we convict people. With facts, no (justifiably) hysterical eye-witness accounts.

Do we know for certain the victim didn't provoke or threaten, or hurt the accused?

There are any number of questions that need to be answered before leaping to conclusions and convicting Li, let alone putting the guy to death, which won't happen anyway, thank heavens, in this country.

And that justifies cutting his throat and decapitating him?

So let me get this straight...you could find justification for this guy's savage actions but can't justify humanely executing a murderer?

I'll remember that if someone breaks into my home and I remove his head with my katana.

Oh yeah, we really love protecting the guilty here don't we? God help the victims because our justice system sure doesn't give a damn.
 

YouVantOption

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Techman said:
You don't want to execute them? OK. How about this instead...we lock them up in a cage in the zoo like the animals they are. No comforts at all. No phone, no television, no toilet. If they want to behave like animals, then let them live like animals.

This is drifting offtopic, but, sure I have no difficulty whatsoever with work camps, so-called 'hard labour' and so on, so long as it is humane. I think for the convenience of the innkeepers, a toilet would probably be of some facility.

I am against the death penalty because it is a permanent thing, and if a mistake is made, there is no way to compensate the condemned. Keep him or her in jail, we can always give them a lump sum as restitution should it be discovered they aren't guilty.

Oh, and then there's the whole thing about the extremely low rate of recidivism among murderers as opposed to many other crimes.

I'd like to say it again, I've personally met, known, and loved at least 20 murder victims, including a large group of teens who were mass murdered. Can anyone else here say that?
 
D

Daringly

YouVantOption said:
I'd like to say it again, I've personally met, known, and loved at least 20 murder victims, including a large group of teens who were mass murdered. Can anyone else here say that?

The sky is green

The moon is purple

It never snows in winter in canada


There you prove what you just claimed and i will then prove what i just said:)
 

YouVantOption

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Techman said:
And that justifies cutting his throat and decapitating him?

So let me get this straight...you could find justification for this guy's savage actions

Not justification, explanation. And no, we have no way of knowing as yet what happened on that bus.

Techman said:
but can't justify humanely executing a murderer?

That would be correct, yes. I do not think killing under any circumstances is right.

Techman said:
Oh yeah, we really love protecting the guilty here don't we? God help the victims because our justice system sure doesn't give a damn.

You sound like you are ready for Texas, where they execute teenagers, and the mentally retarded. I don't see the Canadian justice system as being endemically flawed as you imply. Yes, there are always examples of failures, and they are made high profile, but every system is imperfect, and in the majority of the cases, it works. Even in murder cases.
 

Techman

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Dec 23, 2004
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YouVantOption said:
Oh, and then there's the whole thing about the extremely low rate of recidivism among murderers as opposed to many other crimes.

I'd like to say it again, I've personally met, known, and loved at least 20 murder victims, including a large group of teens who were mass murdered. Can anyone else here say that?

Murderers who have been executed have a recidivism rate of zero.:cool:

While I have known people who have been murdered, including my martial art master and a couple of dancers, the number is nowhere near 20. And if given the chance to avenge any of their deaths, I would do so quite willingly with no hesitation.

And I never said I was interested in 'humane' punishment. Toss them on a desert island with no supplies and shark infested waters for all I care. Screw being 'humane'. These animals weren't humane when they killed their victims.
 

YouVantOption

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Daringly said:
The sky is green

The moon is purple

It never snows in winter in canada


There you prove what you just claimed and i will then prove what i just said:)

Well, no, thanks, because there are people on this board whom I'd rather not encounter; as well, I value my anonymity, and were I to divulge details, to those whom I know in my gut I can trust, implicitly, or even to a fine upstanding person such as yourself who just accused me of something vile by PM, I'd fear my identity would be made public.

All of my close friends and a number of colleagues know precisely how I assist indy SPs, but if this information is to be spread further, I'd want to lay the appropriate groundwork to manage the reaction among my extended group of associates, friends, relatives and colleagues, naturally enough.

So believe my statement about having met murder victims, or not being a pimp, or don't: As I've told you previously when you demanded proof about something or other I really and truly couldn't care less what you, Darling, think. You are just some guy on an anonymous board. Why would you care what I say? if you don't believe what I said or say, that is entirely your right, and fine by me. I merely stated it to add some context to my beliefs.
 
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hungry101

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Doc Holliday said:
I agree. Capital punishment never solved anything & most of the time these psychopaths would prefer getting killed off than going on with their lives. We'd be doing them a favor. I actually wouldn't mind seeing him walk so that he could get the shit kicked out of him. But he won't walk. I'm afraid he might be put away from the rest of the prison population once he's found guilty.

What do you mean capital punishment never solved anything? How many executed Murderers have ever killed again?

In rare cases there is true evil out there. We know who they are. Put em to sleep so they can't hurt anyone else.
 
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For those of you calling for this guy's head, I have but a few words for you:

Ruben 'Hurricane' Carter
Donald Marshall
Guy Paul Morin
David Milgaard
Wilbert Coffin
The Innocence Project

It is true that in our justice system in the past there have been wrongful convictions. Thankfully with newer and more efficient methods in forensic science these are fewer today. In the cases which you outline here as well as in the Truscott case witnesses were not present during the actual commission of the crime. In cases like that I would be open to judges exercising a degree of latitude in sentencing. I have no problem with that.

I find it amusing that someone would immediately think 'Islamic extremist' and then calls follow for precisely the type of punishment the Islamic extremists so enjoy.

I don't think the poster who made this comment attached any particular importance to it in developing any conclusions as to the identity of the perpetrator, merely making an observation.

Anyone here had a friend murdered? I've had one, who was decapitated, and a relative, who was killed by a murderer on parole. I met a group of people who were murdered the following week.

Thank you for sharing this. I am sure the experiences were unpleasant but this is not a moral pissing contest. Let's discuss the issue based on its merits okay?

So save me the crap about me being a bleeding heart. I think there are just punishments, but taking a human life in retribution is not it, particularly since there is so much that can and does go wrong in evidentiary chains.

Well this may be powerful rhetoric but making the statement that you don't know what the answer is but the death penalty isn't it is not very helpful. Perhaps you could give us some ideas as to what you feel the answer is. As for what can go wrong in evidentiary chains, as I said in a previous post, this argument can cut both ways. Asserting that we can rehabilitate such killers and releasing them back into society is simply playing Russian Roulette with our lives. However as I said in a previous post, if you can guarantee that it will be mandated that these killers will spend the rest of their natural lives in prison then I will meet you half way on that one. But in the present climate of ( and I wont use the term bleeding hearts) a legal system pressured to be soft on crime don't bet the rent money that at some point in the future those guilty of monstrous acts wont be released back into our midst.
 
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D

Daringly

YouVantOption said:
Well, no, thanks, because there are people on this board whom I'd rather not encounter; as well, I value my anonymity, and were I to divulge details, to those whom I know in my gut I can trust, implicitly, or even to a fine upstanding person such as yourself who just accused me of something vile by PM, I'd fear my identity would be made public.

All of my close friends and a number of colleagues know precisely how I assist indy SPs, but if this information is to be spread further, I'd want to lay the appropriate groundwork to manage the reaction among my extended group of associates, friends, relatives and colleagues, naturally enough.

So believe my statement about having met murder victims, or not being a pimp, or don't: As I've told you previously when you demanded proof about something or other I really and truly couldn't care less what you, Darling, think. You are just some guy on an anonymous board. Why would you care what I say? if you don't believe what i said or say, that entirely your right, and fine by me. I merely stated it to add some context to my beliefs.

Well that is to bad because i was looking forward to proving what i said but since you can't i won't bother either. After your first oh so rude pm to me i did not call you anything and thats a fact, i have the pm to prove it. All i was doing was making a little general conversation.
 

YouVantOption

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Techman said:
Murderers who have been executed have a recidivism rate of zero.:cool:

While I have known people who have been murdered, including my martial art master and a couple of dancers, the number is nowhere near 20. And if given the chance to avenge any of their deaths, I would do so quite willingly with no hesitation.

I'm not saying I didn't feel like it at the time ...

Techman said:
And I never said I was interested in 'humane' punishment. Toss them on a desert island with no supplies and shark infested waters for all I care. Screw being 'humane'. These animals weren't humane when they killed their victims.

Interesting. So why then is killing another person acceptable under certain circumstances?

Also, you mentioned cutting off someone's head who broke into your home. How does the punishment of breaking and entering justify you meting out the death penalty?
 

alice_wonderland

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Regular Guy said:
It is interesting to see that Alice and GTA have difficulty accepting that anyone could commit such a monstrous act without some external cause. They are good people. God knows we could use more like them. They are having as much trouble getting their heads around this as I suspect is most of the general population. We never want to believe the worst of people. Today we tend to deal with it by making victims of all involved. Li is not a cold blooded killer.......He is a victim. How else can we explain such a monstrous act? As they say we don't know all the answers yet. That Li is a victim of anything is just speculation at this point. What do you do with him? Psychology is not an exact science. Can we take a chance that he will not offend again after treatment? Do you want to bet someone's life on it?

I do not gamble so I wont bet life. And not someone else life for sure. I say IF he is paranoid schizophrene he need to be put in hospital for life. Do you know what paranoid schizophrene is like? I give exemple of my friend's ex I know very well. He heavily sedated now and like walking dead. I say the man who kill is victim and should go back on street after doctor say 'ok, he is sick, give meds and send back home and hope he take them'??? No. I know my english not THAT bad. I say interned and medicated for life. This is possibility. More expensive possibility from death penalty, but I feel better with this. IF this man have paranoid delusion before he kill you think is good to put in prison for life? There is no death penalty in Canada anyway. Maybe Canada should sign agreement with US to ship all crazy people to Texas so they can be fry? Oh, this is right: decision to take off death penalty is made by people elected. Who elect them? We. So no death penalty = decision of majority vote who put in office = us. Vote Harper again and next term we get abortion illegal and age consent of sex 18. I'm sure if you write letter you can have death penalty put as new bill on agenda too. Gamble for majority conservative goverment for it passing though :p

Thank you,

Alice
 
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YouVantOption

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Daringly said:
Well that is to bad because i was looking forward to proving what i said but since you can't i won't bother either. After your first oh so rude pm to me i did not call you anything and thats a fact, i have the pm to prove it. All i was doing was making a little general conversation.

I told you by PM to stop playing games, I'll say it here now. Put up or shut up. Oh wait, that gives me an idea.

plonk.

last I'll see of that guy, thank god.
 
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