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Thread: Positive discussion about the hobby : Illusions VS Sincerity

  1. #1
    Quote Originally Posted by Elizabeth
    It seems that the majority of hobbyists want to buy a dream, some kind of ideal fantasy. They don't want to know the person behind the escort because it could take away the sexual drive. And even if they wish to know more about the SPs they meet, is it careful for an escort to completely expose herself, to share her private life with people who, and we discover it often too late, are not always sane?

    It seems to me that being a good SP, amongst other things, lies in the capacity to find a right balance between sincerity and the need for creating a salutary illusion. What do you think about it? When you meet an escort, do you seek integrity? Or do you prefer to be in the company of a woman who can offer the illusion of the perfect fantasy to you, even if it means she might lie? And finally, do you believe that it is possible to combine sincerity to the art of seduction?
    Elizabeth,

    The majority of hobbyists don't give a rat's ass about how an SP really feels. They view SPs as sexual objects who are there to satisfy sexual fantasies. Once an SP crosses the line to share something personal, she ceases to be an object and becomes human, ergo, less appealing to the majority of clients.

    Having said this, I do believe that some SPs are better at communicating their inner feelings than others and given the right setting, they are able to divulge personal feelings. I prefer these SPs because for me the goal of an encounter is not to ejaculate but to enjoy sharing some intimate moments with a lady which will hopefully include some deep conversation. I find when I am engaged in my mind, the sex is way better.

    Unfortunately, these boards are hopelessly shallow, often measuring SPs through the myopic "GFE" lens. This unidimensional lens is retarded but this will never change. SPs need to gauge clients as they see them and decide for themselves whether or not it is worth sharing some personal info.

    GG

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Elizabeth
    But it seems to me that the physical connexion is almost less important to you than the intellectual one. Am I wrong to have this impression? If so, how come you seem to be happy with escorts, even when they do not offer a liberal service?
    Liz,

    I have had excellent sexual encounters with average looking ladies where it was fairly superficial but great sex. I have also been with drop-dead gorgeous ladies where the sex was non-existent but I enjoyed the kissing, chatting and cuddling. On rare occasions, I have had it all with a drop-dead gorgeous babe.

    I would be lying if I said that looks are not important to me. I know how I feel when I look at Luna or Maude from XXXtase or more recently Demi, the indy. These are drop-dead gorgeous babes. But I enjoyed them because I can converse with them. I have had excellent encounters with average looking ladies that are equally engaging and I do not care about less "liberal" services, especially CBJ. No kissing pisses me off a lot more because I find kissing very arousing.

    GG

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Elizabeth
    GG, I understand what you mean. But you said earlier that intimacy was your goal when you met a lady. I don't think it is since you are still very enthusiast when you meet an SP who charges extra for kissing...

    Wich brings me to the subject of this thread : if she does not like kissing, do you think she really enjoys her work? And if she does not, isn't she creating an illusion to make you beleive she likes what she does?

    Not that there is necessary something wrong with that. In fact, that's what I want to know : do hobbyists think it is ok for an SP to be a bit shady if it means it will make them feel better about the encounter and, ultimately, about themselves?
    Demi tried charging me extra for kissing but I refused. She light kissed me but it wasn't sensual. Some SPs do not want to deep kiss clients because it's too personal. Amy of Prime Time comes to my mind. Sabrina of Magnetic refuses any kissing whatsoever. It's their prerogative. It doesn't necessarily make them worse SPs and it doesn't necessarily mean they hate their work cause they do not kiss.

    But the truth is, the overwhelming majority of SPs are solely in this for the money and it shows. The smart ones just camouflage it better.

    GG

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Elizabeth
    I want a clear answer! If I understand what you are saying, it IS ok for SPs to create some kind of illusion, right?

    Because if what you say is true, and that most of them are faking it, there would not be many escorts left if they were sincere with clients!
    Darling, genuine sincerity is the rarest commodity in this biz. Some of us are not even sincere with ourselves.

    Let me also give you a better example of what I hate. I have been meaning to meet Melodie (use to be called Savannah) from Montreal Hot Girls. I simply find her gorgeous and sexy:

    http://www.montrealhotgirls.com/melodie.htm

    But every time I talk to Sunny, he's evasive with her service. "She is not GFE" he tells me, to which I reply "be more specific...do you mean CBJ or no kissing or no DATY?"

    Now, let's say I booked her and she felt pressured to be GFE with me because I am "GG" blablabla... I would read right through her act and feel awful. I want the lady to feel at ease with me in her mind and body.

    GG

  5. #5
    I don't know many jobs where you can be 100% honest with your clients.
    Where I work, we can't tell the client what we really think of him, because we need his money. (And it's not even remotely sexual )

    I suppose that sometimes politeness can turn into lies. Especially when talking to a client.

    I personally feel a bit insulted when an SP puts on an act,
    but it seems to be part of their job and I don't feel like telling them how to do their job.

    I think you can be honest without necessarily sharing personal things and exposing yourself. I expect integrity but I don't expect a woman to tell me everything about her. I like her to confide in me, but I wouldn't dare to ask for it. That's up to her.

    If a woman is sincere with me, there is a much higher chance that I will see her again. Even if she didn't reveal personal things.

  6. #6
    I may have uncommon desires but I prefer if a SP would be honest with me. I don't need to feel she is truly attracted to me or not to have sex and I would rather know, as a man, what she would like or not like and what she sees in the man in front of her, good or bad. I also prefer honesty about herself and her life. She need not tell me specifics but at least so I know what she is really like and know it is true. In all this, from truth, comes the ability to raise ourselves up and make ourselves better, but most people lie to each other every day and my wish is not just about SPs but all human beings.

    I have trouble believing in the basic goodness of people because if people were good by nature then honesty would flow easily because we would all want to help each other and raise each other up. But there appears to be no such thing and people lie to each other constantly because they want something from the other person which can only come from lies or they fear getting hurt by the other person who might take advantage of their honesty.

    I for one want my illusions broken. Sometimes when reality hurts it allows us to more easily move on or see reality and make a change for the better. Sometimes reality saves and two humans can know true intimacy.

    Most hobbyists prefer the illusion because they are only after sex and want to leave the arrangement with nothing lingering. They want the sex for release and any attempt at maximizing the experience is desired to stay in the realm of the sensual and not cross the line into truth and intimacy, a complexity for which they want to believe they are paying to avoid. Most SPs encourage the illusion, even with hobbyists who prefer truth, because it suits their livelihood.

    Every time I found myself believing that a SP was exposing herself to me honestly, it ended up only being an extension of a greater illusion.
    BïgPiçklê

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Elizabeth
    They don't want to know the person behind the escort because it could take away the sexual drive. And even if they wish to know more about the SPs they meet, is it careful for an escort to completely expose herself, to share her private life with people who, and we discover it often too late, are not always sane?
    Think of Brando and Maria Schneider in the Last Tango in Paris. This sort of spontaneous reinvention of man/woman relationship is what I often find in my dealings with SP's: one, because I like it and want it this way; two, because the SP was able to size me and comply to my needs. This is my prerogative, I have no pretention at it being singular or original and I acknowledge it not being everyone's cup of tea. I also realize that such "penchant", in my case, fluctuates and adapts - not always perfectly - to both the SP's willingness and abilities to respond. I'm not looking for emotional solace, I don't need compensation, I'm no one's savior and not looking for one. Most importantly, I don't want any sort of bonding besides this clandestine, animalistic, anonymous, body-to-body dalliance.

    Moi, moi, moi... Yes, of couse, "moi" because "moi" is about the only person in this hobby I know well enough to make positive statements. I'm pretty sure - oh might as well say it loud and clear - "I know" that some guys out there are looking to reproduce (hassle-free) a real relationship. So they have this need to "know" the SP and they go through all the motions: dating, assessing compatibilities, moving into intimacy, and so on and so forth... I know some guys out there don't always engage in sex on the first meeting... I know of some that sleep, eat, travel, practically live with SP's as if they were their spouses, something I just can't/want to/won't do... And I know there's this whole community of clients who are just thriving for bodily discharge with professional savoir-faire... etc ... etc ... etc ...

    So this to say that the problem with questions like the one you posed (though interesting) is its vagueness. First, the wording is problematic: "illusion" and "sincerity" are being displayed here within the framework of a dichotomy but must the two concepts necessarly be opposed? Also, in such phraseology, the meaning of "illusion" is tinted with negative overtones, why so? Are we generally coming out of a movie theatre disappointed over the movie not being sincere and just being "an illusion"? And even if we agree on the relevance of opposing the two concepts, why wouldn't it be fair to say that in some cases, with certain clients, certain SP's are sincere whereas in other cases, with other clients, they are not? And is it really a problem? Why must everything be always black or white? Why must we justify everything? Why can't we just do it?

    Again, your question is interesting though very difficult and probably unanswerable. The language is a problem but exists also the difficulty of acquiring sufficient knowledge. How can someone state anything with absolute certainty when it comes to human affairs? It's exasperating to read stuff like: "99% of SP's find clients disgusting" or "All SP's are just being actresses", "All Sp's earnings are going up their noses", and so forth... Sorry, but where are the surveys? Show me the studies! Well, there's not really such things...

    I'm inclined to think that, quite often if not most of the time, a client/SP relationship is a one-time quick affair, with occasional repeats, a few leading to closer dealings, an even fewer to genuine friendship, a much rarer few to genuine intimacy, an infinitesimal few to real love. SP's: some are more detached than others, some fall, some dissociate, some live through the dealings with that légèreté de l'être, others become suicidal - what do we know? - there are as many SP's as there are women taking up the job. And clients - clients! - some look at the sky, hoping for a statement or fearing a reprimand, any acknowledgement from "the beyond" to convince themselves that "there's something else", while some others are vintage pessimists, some agonizing some, on the contrary, jubilating, because, according to them, there's no better way to live. The typology contains countless items: you have the father figure who wants to put all the SP's he meets through school, you have, you have, you have, you have Tony, you have GG and you have the rest of the bunch... All the nice people is meeting in a flash and in the most complete promiscuity.

    I may be wrong but if I stand correct, how is it possible to "really" know each others and therefore assess one's sincerity?
    Last edited by z/m(Ret); 03-25-2007 at 12:13 PM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elizabeth
    I even had virulent exchanges on the boards with some hobbyists who rather affirmed the illusory aspect of the hobby was very important. As time went by, I began to have the impression that they were right. It seems that the majority of hobbyists want to buy a dream, some kind of ideal fantasy. They don't want to know the person behind the escort because it could take away the sexual drive. And even if they wish to know more about the SPs they meet, is it careful for an escort to completely expose herself, to share her private life with people who, and we discover it often too late, are not always sane?
    The same applies to SPs who are not always, shall we say, level-headed and entirely normally adjusted either. I've dated two ex-SPs, have been friends with several others, and, a lot of other women not in the profession. Rather than get into the whole 'does anyone ever know anyone else' guff, let me just say that your phrase "the illusory aspect of the hobby" is very well put. There are many layers to the onion of a person's true identity, and of course an SP is going to display certain characteristics of her personality on a date. Heck, 'normal' girls act a certain way on the first date, too, as do guys.

    Extrapolating the GFE or SP mannerisms to be the entire person is foolish, just as foolish as expecting her to look as good as she does when you pay her for her time as when she gets up in the morning, or is having a bad day.

    Bottom line: A client does not know an SP anymore than she knows the client, and arguably a whole lot less, despite angelic impressions to the contrary.
    Last edited by YouVantOption; 03-25-2007 at 08:15 AM.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouVantOption
    The same applies to SPs who are not always, shall we say, level-headed and entirely normally adjusted either. I've dated two ex-SPs, have been friends with several others, and, a lot of other women not in the profession. Rather than get into the whole 'does anyone ever know anyone else' guff, let me just say that your phrase "the illusory aspect of the hobby" is very well put. There are many layers to the onion of a person's true identity, and of course an SP is going to display certain characteristics of her personality on a date. Heck, 'normal' girls act a certain way on the first date, too, as do guys.

    Extrapolating the GFE or SP mannerisms to be the entire person is foolish, just as foolish as expecting her to look as good as she does when you pay her for her time as when she gets up in the morning, or is having a bad day.

    Bottom line: A client does not know an SP anymore than she knows the client, and arguably a whole lot less, despite angelic impressions to the contrary.
    I have had SP's become extremely open with me. I have had girl's open up to me and start telling me there insecurities. ie I have run into one girl who was an orphan and chose the sp way to support her and her baby, who she was raising alone because her boyfriend skipped after he found out she was pregnant. I found her story very sad. Another told me she thought of suicide which I spent a good half an hour of the 2 hours in therapy session telling her she is young and beautiful and has an exciting life ahead of her. She said she felt more uplifted after our conversation.

    I think for myself, the fantasy is having a beautiful 19 year old to 24 year old gorgeous woman making love to me, and I making love to her, and to further that fantasy would to have her by my side like a girlfriend, whenever we can. The SP allows the fantasy to be pseudo real for 2 or 3 hours.

    When I was younger, 20 to 25 years ago, I was less enamored by youth because it was more accessible to me, and I was young. Now, since the years have passed, I notice the beauty of younger women more.

    The women who opened up are a minority. Most of the times, SP's get down to the business of SPing and I and they (hopefully, I think?) have a good time.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by daydreamer41
    I have had SP's become extremely open with me. I have had girl's open up to me and start telling me there insecurities. ie I have run into one girl who was an orphan and chose the sp way to support her and her baby, who she was raising alone because her boyfriend skipped after he found out she was pregnant. I found her story very sad. Another told me she thought of suicide which I spent a good half an hour of the 2 hours in therapy session telling her she is young and beautiful and has an exciting life ahead of her. She said she felt more uplifted after our conversation.
    Those are details of a life, a far cry from getting to know someone.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouVantOption
    Those are details of a life, a far cry from getting to know someone.
    You can't "get to know" somebody in a few hours. Getting to know someone like you are talking about is the REAL GFE experience. That takes many encounters, like in real life dating. I don't think that is possible when you see a SP for a few hours.

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    My point exactly!

    Quote Originally Posted by daydreamer41
    You can't "get to know" somebody in a few hours. Getting to know someone like you are talking about is the REAL GFE experience. That takes many encounters, like in real life dating. I don't think that is possible when you see a SP for a few hours.
    Couldn't agree more. Getting to know someone involves gauging the reactions to life's circumstances. I had a friend who travelled 18 hours cross-continent when my Mom died to help support me through those terrible days. That's someone I can trust and rely upon completely, and who trusts me as much.

    In more trite terms; 'A friend will help you move. A good friend will help you move at midnight. A true friend will help you move a body at midnight'.

    You don't get that level of personal intimacy from or insight in someone you are paying to be naked and play with your genitals. Ever.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by daydreamer41
    You can't "get to know" somebody in a few hours. Getting to know someone like you are talking about is the REAL GFE experience. That takes many encounters, like in real life dating. I don't think that is possible when you see a SP for a few hours.
    I think we can all agree that it takes a lot more than a few hours to get to know someone. However, I know a few SPs that shared very personal struggles with me because they felt comfortable talking about it with me. I also shared my personal struggles with them. My attitude is "let's cut the bullshit" and let me be physically and emotionally naked with you. I do not do this every single time but when I am comfortable with an SP and the conversation flows, then I tend to share.

    Now, the ultra cynic will claim that SPs are just lying to me. But what does a an SP get from telling me her ex-boyfriend beat her with a belt or another tell me that her brother sodomized her when she was young? I am sorry but these are very difficult things to share with anyone, let alone a client that you may never see again. It's been my experience that some ladies need to share this just as I need to share because they empathize with struggle. They play the role of "sex object" with so many clients that once in a while, they enjoy just being themselves in an encounter and letting loose.

    Before I get the chorus of naysayers stating "there goes GG thinking he's special or better than others", I will state that I do not care what others think. I do not always believe everything SPs tell me but by the same token, there are moments of crystal clear honesty. I remember cuddling up with several SPs where they admitted having hard time doing this job but they needed the money. Are they bullshitting me? Of course not; they're being brutally honest.

    Let me get back to the illusion aspect of this biz. I submit to you that there are many people who are being fooled in this biz...many of them do not even know it. If an SP plays the illusion role too well, she risks having a client get too involved with her. She risks hurting a client's feelings and many SPs are actually decent people and do not want to hurt other people. Again, there are bitches who do not care as long as the money rolls in, but they're a minority among the quality SPs.

    There are others who claim that once you cross the line and become a client, you are always a client and can never develop a true friendship. While this may be true, I also think that once a lady crosses the line to become an SP, most clients are unwilling to have a real relationship with her. There are delusional clients out there but the guys who have their heads screwed on right will avoid getting into a relationship with an SP. They will admit that if they really want the best for the lady, they will let her find true love when she ultimately retires from this biz.

    Finally, I also have my doubts on people who think they've developed a true friendship with SPs because they never paid to be with them. I can count my true friends on one hand. I know a lot about them. I grew up with them - they're my true buds. My definition of a true friend is that they'll be there for me no matter what, through thick and thin. I strongly doubt that anyone involved in this biz in any way, shape or form has developed this type of relationship with an SP.

    I do not write the above with a malicious intent. I simply feel that many people are fooling themselves. I know because I've been there.

    GG

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    Quote Originally Posted by General Gonad
    the ultra cynic will claim that SPs are just lying to me. But what does a an SP get from telling me her ex-boyfriend beat her with a belt or another tell me that her brother sodomized her when she was young? I am sorry but these are very difficult things to share with anyone, let alone a client that you may never see again.
    Foe exactly the same reason The Internet Confessional is so popular, they can say something with no lasting consequences. It is easier to confess to a stranger whom you will never see again than a friend or parent, or lover.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy Montana
    Again, your question is interesting though very difficult and probably unanswerable. The language is a problem but exists also the difficulty of acquiring sufficient knowledge. How can someone state anything with absolute certainty when it comes to human affairs? It's exasperating to read stuff like: "99% of SP's find clients disgusting" or "All SP's are just being actresses", "All Sp's earnings are going up their noses", and so forth... Sorry, but where are the surveys? Show me the studies! Well, there's not really such things...
    Oh good god - look for the studies. There are plenty, perhaps the most credible being those submitted by dozens of groups during the reform of the prositution laws process. Google justice + prostitution laws + canada for those.

    Here are some random ones:

    http://www.walnet.org/csis/papers/sdavis.html
    Ironically, prostitutes in our society are encouraged to identify themselves as drug addicts, thereby helping to perpetuate one of the stereotypes surrounding them:

    "It is a common belief that prostitution and drug addiction go hand in hand, and while this is not a complete picture there is certainly a specific section of the industry in which this is the case... Current publicity encourages those women to identify the drug problem as the cause and root of the state of their lives, but homelessness, unemployment and various other problems such as mild physical disabilities or light mental retardation, dyslexia and so on are often present and contribute to the women's decision to work in prostitution. These other problems are, however, not as fashionable to speak about as heroin addiction. "The moral code which identifies prostitute women as "bad women" encourages many women to say that they would not work as prostitutes were it not for drug addiction. In some sense prostitution is more acceptable or forgivable when accompanied by drug addiction."
    quote from submission made by the Prostitutes' Collective to the Inquiry Into Prostitution, Victoria: Final Report (2 volumes) (Melbourne: Government Printer, 1985)

    Addiction fuels boom in teen prostitution
    Independent online (SA)
    By Yugendree Naidoo Increasing numbers of teenage girls who are addicted to hard drugs are selling their bodies to finance their habits, say Cape Town drug treatment workers. Young girls are either engaging in prostitution to earn money to buy drugs or having sex with merchants in exchange for drugs.

    http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/171/2/147
    Having studied prostitution in Canada since 1977, I have come to believe that this logic is fundamentally flawed. To begin with, commercial sex is not monolithic. A distinction can be drawn between: (a) sexual slavery, including debt bondage; (b) survival sex, which is driven by poverty, drug prohibition and addiction in situations where participants have few if any viable income alternatives; and (c) prostitution, which is a choice made by a person who has other choices. These 3 forms of commercial sex should not be conceived as discrete categories, but rather as positions on a continuum. But the distinctions between them are important, because the women working at the more lucrative end of the sex trade in municipally licensed facilities are not the ones being murdered. Few are intravenous drug users. Further, on the basis of formal and informal discussions with dozens of women and men involved in different kinds of prostitution, I do not believe that the people who insist that they choose to prostitute are deluding themselves. And, rather than seeing prostitution as harming all women, I agree with pro-choice feminists who argue that denying women control of their own bodies, including the decision to sell sexual services, denies them full and equal personhood.


    British Study: It is estimated that as many as 95% of women involved in prostitution have a drug or alcohol addiction.

    Here's a little line that relates back to the wqhole 'is MERB a place for pandering' question:

    The sex trade in Canada falls into a grey area because even though prostitution isn't illegal, related activities are. For example, people who communicate for the purpose of prostitution or who sell sexual services can be charged under the Criminal Code.
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